{"id":2256,"date":"2012-11-05T13:00:28","date_gmt":"2012-11-05T13:00:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/arpjournal.com\/?p=2256"},"modified":"2012-11-05T09:41:25","modified_gmt":"2012-11-05T09:41:25","slug":"interview-with-kevin-doyle","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/interview-with-kevin-doyle\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Kevin Doyle"},"content":{"rendered":"

What\u2019s going on these days?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I\u2019ve just finished producing and engineering a CD for local artist Sarah Smith, formerly on \u201cThe Joys\u201d. Sarah recently performed a sold out show at Aeolian Hall in London<\/p>\n

Where did you record?<\/strong><\/p>\n

We recorded bed-tracks in Toronto at Phase One Studios and recorded overdubs in my living room at home.<\/p>\n

What do you monitor on?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I have a pair of Yamaha NS-10s. I\u2018ve had them for about twenty years now.<\/p>\n

You swear by them.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yeah, I\u2019m used to them.<\/p>\n

Do you use anything to listen to sub?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Not really because most of the pop and rock music I do doesn\u2019t really require a lot of feel bottom end. I like to hear the notes of a bass player rather than feel them. Most often I eliminate any audio below forty cycles.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s easier on the speakers.<\/strong><\/p>\n

It is and most people own bookshelf speakers. You can mix on big speakers and when it translates to small speakers you can\u2019t hear anything that the bass player\u2019s playing or the bass drum sounds thin. Instead of sounding like a little bottom end and a bit of an attack to define the rhythm all you hear is the attack; you don\u2019t hear any of the bottom end. That\u2019s because the monitoring frequency\u2019s way too low and that just doesn\u2019t make any musical sense to me. I don\u2019t work on house records or disco records or dance music. Those styles are in a whole different genre that I am not familiar with..<\/p>\n

You\u2019d be mixing for big sound systems in clubs.<\/strong><\/p>\n

I try to work on music you\u2019re going to want to hear. The three most important elements are harmonic, melodic and rhythmic structure. I look to the basics of a song and focus on which one of the elements is providing the foundation and working within that paradigm. I don\u2019t introduce frequencies that you only feel or ask myself the question, \u201cCan I feel the bottom end?\u201d I tend to mix for a demographic that\u2019s really interested hearing an appealing melody.<\/p>\n

When you\u2019re tracking a band are you EQ\u2019ing the instruments to establish specific sounds to keep for the final mix?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes I am. If I know exactly what I want, I will commit.<\/p>\n

I guess it depends on the room or the artist that you\u2019re recording, but back when you were recording Glenn Gould obviously you had to commit to the captured sound.<\/strong><\/p>\n

You had to make decisions all the time back in those days. I still work like that on most occasions. For instance, when I\u2019m layering the recording with overdubs, I feel it\u2019s important for me to have an idea or a sonic picture of what it should sound like in the end. Then I will commit my ideas as I go along. If I\u2019m solid with the artist and where we\u2019re going with the project I then create a production framework to build on. That way you\u2019re efficiently progressing towards the final goal. When I was working with Sarah, we agreed that the CD should sound organic and dynamic. She then went on the road for 6 weeks and let me do all the production, where I would always commit to a sound I wanted. Now these days, what happens with the digital format is a lot of young people record everything without dynamic management, equalization and effects, because you can do a lot of things in mixing without introducing a lot of noise problems that might have occurred if you had to commit to a sound and a vision from the beginning. Then you have a problem when you have little idea of what the final product should sound like and you have so many options and choices you don\u2019t know where to start with a mix. That is a major problem with educating students in recording engineering courses these days. I would even go out on a limb and state that the schools are producing students that can record properly but can\u2019t mix. To this day, I have only met one student out of thousands that has an idea of how to mix a song. And that student is a good mixer because he is a musician first and foremost. (M.G.)<\/p>\n

Almost like switching pick-up configurations.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Exactly. A guitar set on the back pickup will give you a much tighter rhythmic idea. Whereas the pickup closer to the neck will give you more of a musical idea; meaning you hear more of the tonality of the notes versus the attack of the pick on the string. If I\u2019ve decided the guitar part is a rhythmic idea like for instance pumping eighth notes, I will commit to that sound. But sometimes when young people record flat, they capture the wrong sound and then the tight rhythmic attack of each eighth note becomes overshadowed by the tonality of the musical idea. If that harmonic mess is captured then mixing becomes a process of deconstruction; meaning trying to fix that sound just makes it worse. I\u2019ve seen guys do that. As soon as they pull up faders and as soon as they start compressing I just say, \u201cYou\u2019re on a road to frustration, a mission that\u2019s going downhill really fast. There\u2019s nothing you can do about it because you\u2019ve started on the wrong foot.\u201d
\nI go in with a real idea of what instrument is going to supply what idea. Consider a guitar and piano in \u201cCrocodile Rock,\u201d Elton John provides the eighth note or sixteenth note rhythmic idea. His part is presenting two ideas: the rhythmic idea of the eighth notes and the harmonic idea of the chords. I\u2019d have to ask, \u201cDo I really need the guitar to pump out eighth notes?\u201d No, because if they\u2019re both playing the same eighth note idea I can\u2019t have them at equal levels because I\u2019ll hear the slight human discrepancy in the rhythmic ideas. That\u2019s because we all hear time differently and it won\u2019t work.
\nIn that situation I\u2019d say to the guitar player, \u201cMaybe you should hold down some barre chords to support the harmonic structure. Then I\u2019d enhance Elton\u2019s piano playing to be more rhythmic by adding midrange, adding compression (slow attack time) to enhance more of the attack of the piano. So, in the end there\u2019s no confusion for the listener. The piano has become a definite rhythmic idea by creating a little bit of a gap between the piano\u2019s rhythmic and harmonic elements. Then, by going to the guitarist and asking him to hold the chords down \u2013 the triads \u2013 to harmonically support the piano, I\u2019ve reinforced or enhanced the idea that Elton\u2019s part is going to supply the rhythm for the track.<\/p>\n

I like the way you describe the music in the context of how the instruments relate to each other in terms of the musical expression.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Well, that perspective comes from working with Doug Riley on the piano; his right hand was always around middle C with single notes in the bass, maybe octaves occassionally. We had Peter Cardinali doing the bass. Two acoustic guitarists; one playing the rhythmic idea the octave above middle C and the other playing fills around Ann Murray\u2019s vocal. And everyone didn\u2019t really deviate from that configuration which gave Ann a framework to work with melodically.
\nIf Doug inserted a piano lick she could ask him if he could take it down an octave if it was interfering in her vocal range. Ann was disciplined. She knew what her audience wanted. It was never an ego thing with Ann she was very disciplined toward her demographic. One night when we were doing Country Crooners she sang a great version of \u201cMe & Bobby McGee.\u201d It was a real barn burner. I really liked it and said, \u201cWe gotta get this version in the can!\u201d She said, \u201cNo, but I can do it live once in a while.\u201d She knew it wouldn\u2019t appeal to her demographic, and I respect that approach.<\/p>\n

I get a real sense that you\u2019re style of engineering often anticipates the needs of the artist.<\/strong><\/p>\n

I think if you\u2019re musically based you always are a part of the production. I\u2019ve always tended to work like that. I was once going to work with this band from Denmark in Germany. I heard the stuff they\u2019d done on their own and I had to say, \u201cYou really don\u2019t need me. You guys pretty well have a good grasp of how to relate to your demographic. I really can\u2019t add to it. Maybe I can make it sound more sophisticated. Maybe the sonic quality could be better, but I can\u2019t really alter the musical concept or ideas that you\u2019ve presented.\u201d But this was their first album and they were not that sure of themselves.<\/p>\n

At that point would you tell them, \u201cI\u2019m going to give you the right sounds. You arrange and produce your music.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

I tend not to do that anymore because it\u2019s not challenging to me. I would do that for an artist like Anne Murray because she gets players like keyboardist Doug Riley and drummer Barry Keane. If I see her line up I\u2019ll engineer because I get paid to listen to great music.<\/p>\n

How did you like working with her producer from Capitol; the session singer? What was his name?
\n<\/strong>
\nTommy West was great to work with. He produced Jim Croce. He was a musicologist who really knew the demographics. He did the Croonin\u2019 and Country Croonin\u2019 records with Anne. He picked the songs for Anne.<\/p>\n

Did he pick all the tunes?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Anne picked the songs along with Tommy. She had to include his choices, but he came up with a couple of unknown jewels for her to do. He knew her audience well enough that he could say, \u201cYou know Anne I think your audience would like \u201cAllegheny Moon,\u201d \u201cHey There,\u201d or \u201cOld Cape Cod.\u201d We\u2019ll use Guido Basso on flugelhorn as a lyrical echo of the vocal melody. So he would present ideas like that to Anne.<\/p>\n

Were you present for preproduction process?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Preproduction was in the studio with charts. We went in with the band and she decided on the tempos. She always sings along with the musicians, so nobody steps on the vocal rhythmically or melodically. She might ask to move the key up or down a semi-tone. Once she gets the right key and the right tempo, then they record the song.<\/p>\n

What kind of communication occurred between you and Tommy West or Anne?
\n<\/strong>
\nThey really let me do my thing. I was really in charge of how it was going to sound. Tommy was not that schooled in the technology. He was really dependent on an engineer.<\/p>\n

He focused on the music rather than the technical aspects of the sound.<\/strong><\/p>\n

He was more of an A&R guy with some good ideas. For instance, there\u2019s not a lot to producing Jim Croce. You give him an acoustic guitar; add his voice and the way it sounds. You\u2019re not going to deviate from that at all. And with Anne you\u2019re not going to deviate either. And Anne has done so many records.
\nIf someone came up with a musical idea that stepped on the vocal she would say, \u201cCut that idea,\u201d but she\u2019s also a big fan of the \u201ccall-and-response\u201d style with the players in the band. That\u2019s why she uses Bob Mann on electric guitar. He plays with James Taylor. When she isn\u2019t singing they\u2019ll fill in the spaces with a musical idea like a counterpoint to her vocal with out stepping on the part.
\nIt\u2019s interesting; we did that album in about three weeks. We did twenty-two songs in the beginning and got them done in four days. She came in to do her vocal and said, \u201cI\u2019m going to do three vocal tracks a day. I\u2019ll be in here at 9:30am and I\u2019m leaving at 5, or dinner and taking an hour for lunch.\u201d She\u2019s a pro, right? Then when I mixed it the project it only took me two hours to mix each son!<\/p>\n

That year I was up for a Juno award for that record and another engineer was up for a Juno award for a Bryan Adams record that he did with Mutt Lange. It took him a week to mix one song. Six months on one song and I won the Juno. He said, \u201cThis just isn\u2019t fair.\u201d I said, \u201cYou\u2019re right, it\u2019s just not.\u201d<\/p>\n

Anne\u2019s project sounds like it was a real joy to work on.
\n<\/strong>
\nAnd I got paid! You can\u2019t go wrong when you\u2019ve got Barry Keane, Doug Riley, Pete Cardinali and Bob Mann. You can\u2019t go wrong with those guys.<\/p>\n

Barry Keane is a drummer, right? Did Gary Craig take over for him? <\/strong><\/p>\n

Gary did the Country Croonin\u2019 record. Some of her band members did that album, but she still brought in Bob Mann, Doug Riley and Lou Pomanti.<\/p>\n

Is Barry still playing these days?
\n<\/strong>
\nI think he\u2019s still playing with Gordon Lightfoot. I think he\u2019s been working with Gordon for the last ten or fifteen years. Gordon Lightfoot is the kind of guy that just doesn\u2019t change so he puts all his musicians on retainers, which is what Anne did until she retired two years ago. It was in her best interest because she would have to do TV specials. She likes golfing. So she\u2019d say, \u201cI\u2019m going to go to Vegas and to golf and perform some shows. Everybody in the band golfs, so they always have a great time because she\u2019s the best golfer of them all.<\/p>\n

Did you record Anne\u2019s albums at Sounds Interchange?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes.<\/p>\n

What format were you working on?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Analog; 24-track Dolby. Croonin\u2019 was 1994 and Country Croonin\u2019 was 2002. Then they had digital tape in there for about five years.<\/p>\n

Do have preference for the consoles that you use? For instance, these days you\u2019re using the Pro Control surface to mix, but in the past what did you prefer?
\n<\/strong>
\nProbably a Neve or an SSL; one of the two. Right now I am content with just using a simple cheap digital control workstation for everything.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s seems to be the common choice: Neve for tracking and SSL for mixing.<\/strong><\/p>\n

That\u2019s probably the optimum way. But, the whole idea of making records has changed dramatically because of economics. Now I can mix at my place in the box. If I mixed it at a pro-studio they\u2019d charge me a thousand dollars a day and then I have to figure out how I\u2019m going to get paid as well. Whereas when I mix at my place I charge a flat rate a day.
\nThrough some research I\u2019ve discovered that when I mix at home I can get it sounding 90% as good as I want. Versus mixing at a pro-studio where I can get it sounding 10% better, but only 10% of the demographic I\u2019m mixing for will be able to notice the difference. So really I\u2019m only dealing with a fundamental difference of 1% of the total market that would say, \u201cYou should have done it at a pro-studio because I can hear the difference.\u201d Listeners aren\u2019t really tuned into high quality audio for its sonic sense. We\u2019re almost back into the 50s and the 60s where the song has to stand strong with a good vocal performance. If that\u2019s not happening it doesn\u2019t matter where you mix it.\u00a0 I just finished mixing Sarah Smith\u2019s new CD and I mixed one of the ten tracks at home and I would be surprised if her fan base could tell me which song it is. You\u2019re not going to change people\u2019s minds or their tastes. Some of the music that\u2019s coming out like Katy Perry and other music that\u2019s doing well are mixed on home facilities. To a great extent we\u2019re mixing to ear buds. The only way I would do high quality sounding records is if it\u2019s in the genres of jazz or classical where the audience or demographic can tell the difference.<\/p>\n

They\u2019re sitting down in front of speakers and listening.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes, where the sound is the primary experience. It\u2019s not really a tertiary experience. Even Anne Murray recordings can be received as a secondary experience because people don\u2019t park themselves in front of the speakers to listen. They\u2019ll be having dinner with wine. Her music is very important, but it might not be the primary focus.<\/p>\n

A thread that I picked up on in your article \u201cSurround Sound\u201d is for engineers to be aware of innovative trends in the music industry.<\/strong><\/p>\n

For instance, Amazon has a great idea. If I\u2019m working with a female contemporary folk artist and she\u2019s put out records before, Amazon will tell me what other albums people bought that purchased her previous recordings. There are usually about three other records. So I\u2019ll look at them and maybe download some of the songs and then I get a pretty good idea of what her demographic wants as a finished product. That\u2019s usually attainable in my working environment. So then I have a direction of where to go. And the discipline that I recommend everyone should attain as fast as they can is: Don\u2019t mix the record for you. Mix it for the demographic.<\/p>\n

Do you use reference recordings as a starting point for most of your projects?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Oh yeah. I\u2019m trying to work with the artist and keep them within the likes and the interests of their demographic, which will hopefully become bigger and expand. When I reference other records I\u2019ll notice that they want the lead vocal quite present and distinct from the band. The band is just there as a backdrop where there are no dynamic pushes from the music. They\u2019re dynamically controlled to present a background or harmonic backdrop to the vocal. All the dynamics are coming from the lead singer. That would give me a good idea of where to go. If the project was a jazz band with a female singer similar to Diana Krall, I\u2019d listen to the singer and if she definitely had some dynamic push and pulls, but there left spaces in the band tracks for the musicians to shine, the dynamics would move up and down within that arrangement. That reference gives me a layout of where to go.
\nConsider the Rolling Stones and Keith Richards. Keith Richards has nuanced rhythmic ideas, harmonic ideas and sometimes some dynamic ideas too. Charlie Watts paints a nice simple rhythmic pattern so I\u2019d introduce dynamic management control with compression on Charlie Watts so all I\u2019d get is the rhythmic idea. I wouldn\u2019t go for a dynamic idea- He doesn\u2019t play like Jack DeJohnette.
\nSo I would dynamically manage him \u2013 as envisioned on a stage sitting in one spot \u2013 by subgrouping the drums and putting on a limiter. Then I\u2019d give Keith Richards the luxury of being dynamic. When I\u2019m listening, in my mind he\u2019s moving from the drums to the front of the stage back and forth. I\u2019m enjoying this kind of emotional connection to his guitar playing, but that\u2019s only going to work if I keep Charlie dynamically controlled, because if Charlie get loud it\u2019s going to push Keith farther away. If Keith plays both melodic and harmonic ideas and I have to make his track louder because Charlie gets loud briefly, then when the drums do come back down to a simple groove the guitar will be too out in front of the drums, to the point that if I don\u2019t have Charlie at a certain level I can\u2019t figure out any of the rhythmic ideas that Keith is presenting because I can\u2019t hear Charlie anymore. So the idea is that I want to hear Charlie doing straight and simple 4\/4 time at an even level all the time and let Keith and Mick have all the dynamics. Like looking at a stage; give them the space to move back and forth. They can move into the band when they want and come forward to stand out from the band by placing the bass and drums in one spot.<\/p>\n

When you describe your mixing technique the music is presented as if the performers were on a stage.
\n<\/strong>
\nYeah, for instance if I was mixing U2 I\u2019d allow a certain amount of dynamic freedom for both the Edge, the guitarist and Bono, the lead singer. Then I\u2019d control the dynamics of the bass and drums. That\u2019s because the Edge presents rhythmic ideas, but he needs the dynamics to represent the whole rhythmic picture: he needs the delay to sound like it\u2019s fading away sometimes or that it\u2019s almost regenerating 100% of the time. I have to give him that luxury, because he wants us to appreciate his rhythmic ideas created with delays over time. I give him that space by not allowing the drums to infringe on his performance by crowding his rhythmic ideas.<\/p>\n

In a mix situation, do you use standardized procedures?
\n<\/strong>
\nIf I already know what I want the mix to sound like in the end. Of course bands like The Rolling Stones and U2 have evolved over the years, but that mix relationship was intrinsic to their development and created the uniqueness of their sound from the time when they started out. I will dynamically manage a mix, but you don\u2019t hear the effect of the compression.<\/p>\n

So dynamic management is constructed as a transparent tool.
\n<\/strong>
\nYes, when I\u2019m creating dynamic management, but then sometimes I\u2019ll use compression to create a sound effect idea.<\/p>\n

When you create sound effect ideas with compression do you find that your experience with Glen Gould or the other acoustic recordings like the Chieftains influences your decisions?
\n<\/strong>
\nI try to bring that experience to enhance or remain true to what the artist is trying to portray. From my experiences I have a bag of tricks that helps me to create an effect that works best for the artist\u2019s vision the final product and how it would be received by their demographic.
\nFor instance, Van Morrison does a lot of vocal scatting, and so does Daryl Hall. But the difference between Daryl Hall and Van Morrison is that Daryl inserts rhythmic subtleties that are quieter that the real vocal part. Whereas Van\u2019s scatting is just as important as the lead vocal. Look at his roots; the electric Chicago blues, or southern blues from the Mississippi Delta where the scatting represented a strong melodic idea that was just as important as the lyric. Not a call and response, but it was all a part of the lyrical idea.<\/p>\n

They were often melodic motives for the song.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Right. So considering the influence of Van\u2019s roots on his singing style I know that what he performs in between the lyrics is just as important because they\u2019re substantive ideas for the expression.
\nProducer Dave Tyson \u2013 I worked with him for Alannah Myles and Hall and Oates \u2013 told me that a recent female singer tended to scat a lot in her recordings. But her sense of melodic improvisation and the sonic nature of her voice were not palatable when she sung in between the lyrics, either to Dave Tyson or her demographic. She was the only one that was convinced that it was really important. So the producer and the writing team decided that they had to edit the scatting because it wasn\u2019t letting the song build. Later, when Dave was mixing the record she was in the studio all the time and he couldn\u2019t complete the necessary editing. So he was smart to mix the record by himself. There is nothing wrong with scatting and some singers are great at it, but if you\u2019re breaking a new artist on the strength of great songs, scatting can take away from that.<\/p>\n

Considering the success of the recording, was she pleased with the results?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I ran into her a couple of years later, and I guess the way she thanked him was by not using him on the next record. And there is nothing wrong with that; an artist should have the right to work with a producer that they feel comfortable with.<\/p>\n

Even though Dave Tyson\u2019s production was successful.<\/strong><\/p>\n

It sold millions and the next record maybe sold a couple hundred thousand. You think she would\u2019ve learned from the success that good songs are key. Actually, she was on the Junos singing a song that\u2019s over in about three minutes. She was wailing at the end and stretched the song to over six minutes. You could see the TV people trying to get her to finish sooner, \u201cNobody wants to hear this and TV time is valuable\u201d That\u2019s a tough production situation though. I tend to shy away from musicians who think that every idea they have is a gem, when it isn\u2019t. In her case, it would have been a good idea years down the road to do a live record?<\/p>\n

How would you deal with a mix decision like that?<\/strong><\/p>\n

You just get rid of it. When I worked with Dave Tyson on Daryl Hall\u2019s song, Dave said, \u201cGet rid of half of his vocal improvising now and see how it goes.\u201d But Daryl\u2019s okay with that. He said, \u201cJust pick what you want. I\u2019m going to give you everything. I\u2019ll guarantee you three good takes and then I\u2019m out of here.\u201d And he did, the first time he sang it. He\u2019s a phenomenal singer. He said, \u201cMove it around and do what ever the song needs, but keep it in a \u2018Hall & Oates\u2019 type of thing.\u201d We knew what he meant. During the chorus Dave said, \u201cIt\u2019s sounding a little sharp there.\u201d<\/p>\n

Did you bring in auto tuning at that point?<\/strong><\/p>\n

No. He sings sharp in a nice way. I worked with Andrea Bocelli and when he sang sharp I tried to fix it and it didn\u2019t sound as good because it lost its edge. I knew he was someone that was well versed with vocals and tenor parts. European tenors tend to sing sharp because European orchestras tune to A442 instead of the North American A440. In Austria they tune to A444; it drives the woodwinds crazy. It really gets stratified when you open up the voices. So Bocelli would purposely sing sharp, only on the beginning of the notes, just to grab the audience\u2019s attention; almost like a rhythmic attack. From what I hear this technique is a common habit of all tenors; European tenors especially. They do it to stick out from the orchestra because most times they\u2019re fighting anywhere from sixty to a hundred musicians.<\/p>\n

So with Daryl Hall it was an acceptable sound and there\u2019s precedence but do you use Autotune in other situations?<\/strong><\/p>\n

One in a while. If I\u2019m working with a really good singer that\u2019s not technically proficient and the onus was on capturing the emotional performance. If they blow a note flat here and there I\u2019ll fix the performance as long as I have the emotional idea and as long as it\u2019s believable. I hate the effect of too much Autotune. It can sound so mechanical or robotic. Adam Levine of Maroon 5 relies heavily on auto-tune basically because he can\u2019t sing in tune. It\u2019s unfortunate because to me he is a terrible singer auto-tuning is good as long as you use it sparingly. It was nice to see a singer like Adele do so well this year sans Auto-tune.
\nI recently worked with this singer Emmy Rossum and she had the uncanny ability to double track her voice almost perfectly in tune so that the result creates a chorus effect; too close. The producer asked her, \u201cCan you loosen up your part a little because the tuning is too close and the double tracking is not working?\u201d For double tracking to work the parts have to be slightly out of tune with each other or it\u2019s not going to work. The parts are so close that they start phasing on each other. Also, Anne Murray\u2019s backup singer Debbie has that uncanny ability to sing exactly in tune. I\u2019d ask Anne, \u201cCan we double your part?\u201d And she\u2019d say, \u201cWe\u2019ll have to get Shirley. With Debbie you won\u2019t get the effect.\u201d That\u2019s Shirley Eikhard. Well I tried it with Debbie and I heard it. The double track was phasing. When I soloed each one on its own they sounded fine, but when I put them together Anne said, \u201cI told you. That\u2019s why I hired her.\u201d
\nIn the old days when they\u2019d double track acoustic guitar \u2013 Supertramp used to do that a lot \u2013 it wouldn\u2019t sound doubled, it just sounds like the original guitar part getting louder. In analog they\u2019d change the speed of the tape machine. So tracking the second guitar tuned to A440 was recording at A441. And just that little tweak made the double track sound like a 12-string guitar.<\/p>\n

While these techniques that enhance a performance are commonly accepted in popular music, recording practice for classical music is most often intent on preserving the acoustic quality of the original. Working with Glenn Gould allowed you experiment with the expression of his recordings. For instance, the recording of Siegfried Idyll and the use of additional close mic\u2019ing to better capture the soloists\u2019 performances.<\/p>\n

That configuration was used in order to make sure I had all the elements to work with in the final stages. That way I could best represent the melodic, harmonic and rhythmic ideas of that piece of music. Too much distant mic\u2019ing during some of the fast tempos would have been too harmonically messy or very muddy sounding. It\u2019s like playing a piano at 180bpm with the sustain pedal down through a key change; a harmonic mess.<\/p>\n

In your article \u201cSurround Sound\u201d you discuss how too many engineers adhere to the standard practice of elevating the importance of the pure sound of the performance within a hall.
\n<\/strong>
\nI\u2019ve never understood that because the optimized recording of the proverbial \u201cbest seat\u201d which is usually the front row in the centre of the first balcony. If you look at it from a physics perspective, it is the most diffused listening point in the auditorium or hall; where reverberation is finally diffused out to the point that it doesn\u2019t sound like early reflections; it sounds like reverb. The closer you move to the wall on either side, the more you hear the reflection off that wall and the more you alter the desirable sonic character of what you want to hear from a piece of music.
\nHowever, when you\u2019re sitting in the first row centre balcony position, where engineers aspire to record, during an adagio section when the music slows down dead spots are created because the hall can only regenerate sound for so long. Mean while the people in the back are probably enjoying it because they\u2019re getting the maximum effect of the reverberation and reflections, but the people sitting close to the stage are getting a very dead sound. When the music arrives at a faster tempo with a solo instrument on the stage and the soloist starts to play ensemble with eighty or more players they can\u2019t compete on a dynamic level. Yo Yo Ma can only play a triple forte and it\u2019ll sound good with ten string players, but when you add twenty or thirty he doesn\u2019t have a hope of being heard. As well, if you\u2019re sitting in that optimum position in the first row of the first balcony you\u2019re not really hearing the intimacy and any sense of dynamic perspective is lost to the ensemble. In that case, you would like to move down to row five or six and sit right in front of the soloist to really appreciate every dynamic and melodic nuance. If you\u2019re sitting farther back, you\u2019re hearing the whole orchestra, but during a fast tempo the solo becomes difficult to hear a mess harmonically.
\nStandardized practice aspires to the idea that overall the first row centre of first balcony is the best seat in the house or the sweet spot. You always hear that phrase, \u201cWhere is the sweet spot for recording in this hall?\u201d That sweet spot is basically for symphonic orchestral features. Once you get into the areas of concerto or solo instruments that sweet spot doesn\u2019t work anymore.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s amazing that you were working alongside Glenn Gould so early in your career. Especially considering one of your first professional projects was the Canadian punk rock band The Demics. I grew up listening to the album Talk\u2019s Cheap; it has a great feel.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yeah, give the band the credit for that. We did all those tracks in about five hours.<\/p>\n

Did you know the guys in the band?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I knew Keith Whittaker a bit. It was just basic one guitar, bass, drums and vocals and they kind of did it all on their own. There\u2019s not much in there to work with; loud sustained guitar chords and a rhythmic bass with a pick. There\u2019s nothing much I could have done all my new found knowledge to alter their performances and if I had it would have been to the detriment of their sound. The only thing I learned to do back then was when the bass player was using a pick,\u00a0 it was suggested to simplify the kick drum part.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s the problem between the bass guitarist and the kick drum with a lot of new engineers that like a lot of attack like Metallica or Nickleback; big and punchy. They both sound good on their own, but when the bass guitar is attacking the downbeats with the kick drum they don\u2019t line up and you can hear the flam. So the bass player has to play with his fingers to round of the top of his waveform and let the kick drum have the attack.<\/p>\n

Then the bass player physically creates the shape of the notes during the performance.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do it where you can; where it should be done, at the source. If you can\u2019t, you can kind of still fix it during post-production. But, then I have seen guys who have taken a guy who played with his fingers and tried to make the performance sound like it was played with a pick. It sounds good on its own, but when it\u2019s mixed in with the other instruments they\u2019ve turned off their whole concept of the mix because they\u2019ve concentrated too much on making each instrument sound good on their own. As a result there\u2019s no cohesiveness in the end result.<\/p>\n

So where did you record Talk\u2019s Cheap and how did that lead to future projects? <\/strong><\/p>\n

In 1979 I recorded it at a place called Southwest Sound in London, Ontario on an 8-track quarter inch machine. \u201cNew York City\u201d was a huge hit off that album.<\/p>\n

I remember that song was on high rotation at the radio station CFNY.<\/strong><\/p>\n

That was great because I got a job in one of the big studios in Toronto and they basically said, \u201cIt takes seven years to become an engineer here.\u201d And I didn\u2019t like that, so I made a deal with them. I asked, \u201cCan I bring in bands at night time? If I get a deal I\u2019ll bring them here.\u201d They said, \u201cAll right.\u201d About three months later the same guys that I did the Demics with \u2013 two guys from Ready Records that I knew from Fanshawe \u2013 said, \u201cWe have another band.\u201d I brought them in and made a demo. The guys from Ready Records said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to put it out,\u201d and that group was Blue Peter. So I went back to the studio manager and said, \u201cI have a band that is willing to pay six hundred dollars a night.\u201d The studio manager said, \u201cCongratulations.\u201d The head engineer there at the time said, \u201cWell, I\u2019ll do it. I\u2019m the head engineer here.\u201d But the band said, \u201cNo, we want Kevin to do it.\u201d So I had a bit of continuity going for myself. So that\u2019s how I got into the pop scene. And then I ended up working on The Elder with Bob Ezrin and KISS in \u201982. At the same time I was working with Glenn Gould editing The Goldberg Variations; from the sublime to the worst.<\/p>\n

When you were editing with Glenn Gould, did you have any input?<\/strong><\/p>\n

It was an interesting process and situation. It takes a few minutes to explain. He recorded it digitally in New York. Then they made analog copies of the master and I would edit the analog tapes back here in Toronto. When he approved of the edits, Glenn would phone down and say, \u201cThis is where we need to do the edits. These ones work for sure.\u201d But then, sometimes, Glenn would have me perform an edit on a sixteenth note that was very low level dynamically. The problem being when you\u2019re doing analog editing you can\u2019t hear the quiet notes. So I created a system whereby I would locate a transient on the playback head by shuffling the tape on the spot where I wanted to edit the performance. Then I would follow the score as the music passed the playback head and I would stab the tape saying, \u201cThat must be the edit point.\u201d Eventually I\u2019d have three little grease pencil marks close together from which I established a measurement with the closest transient. To do that I\u2019d mark both the edit point and the closest transient and then I would take that section of tape out and establish an exact distance between the two notes. Then I would take the other piece I had to insert or change and find the same closest transient. I wouldn\u2019t even listen to it because I knew that Glenn was pretty accurate with his tempos and based on that and the original measurement I said, \u201cI need to cut the tape here,\u201d and it would work all the time. I had to create these systems so I could get the editing done.
\nIn New York they didn\u2019t have that flexibility or creative insight. All they could do was listen to the transients or listen to another note. They would try to find that quiet note and they just couldn\u2019t find it. I said, \u201cYou\u2019ll never be able to hear it because it\u2019s not the loudest thing, but he does want you to edit on that note (transient), and I did do the edit on that note and it works.\u201d They basically called me a liar a couple of times. If Glenn hadn\u2019t been there to talk to them the situation would have blown up. He wouldn\u2019t give me the phone sometimes because I was going to scream at them. He\u2019d be saying, \u201cRelax Kevin.\u201d I was very defensive. I was young. I said, \u201cI did it.\u201d And he would say, \u201cI know Kevin.\u201d So Glenn figured out some way to translate how I had edited the music so they could do the same in New York. They were working on a 3M and I didn\u2019t even know what that machine looked like. Then we would get the reference CDs back and they hadn\u2019t done the edit right. That happened three or four times. They thought that they had got the edit and I said, \u201cThat sounds shitty.\u201d And Glenn would never swear, but he said, \u201cGet them on the phone. Why don\u2019t you go for a walk and I\u2019ll talk to them.\u201d I made a pact with Glenn that I would behave myself.
\nHe used to say, \u201cI know my engineer is young, but he\u2019s very energetic, very thorough and he\u2019s very good at what he does here. You wouldn\u2019t believe how he does it, but I\u2019ve had\u00a0 him do it in front of my own eyes, and he is good.\u201d Their tape was running at 30ips and ours was running at 15ips so he\u2019d ask me what for my measurement. I told him, \u201cAbout three eighths of an inch. Then he\u2019d say to them, \u201cYou know that edit you did. You need to cut the tape about six eighths to the right farther on and you\u2019ll get it.\u201d We would get the next reference CD and Glenn would say, \u201cAlmost there. Try one thirty-second of an inch back to the left and you\u2019ve got it.\u201d And that\u2019s how the editing process went on. Unfortunately he died about a month before it came out and they didn\u2019t give me a credit. I picked all the edit points and they just had to duplicate the work that I had done. But I was nominated for a Grammy award for it and I still have my platinum CD that CBS gave me. The CD did end up winning many Grammy Awards.<\/p>\n

What an amazing project to work on. Did he re-record everything from the original 1955 recording?<\/strong><\/p>\n

He did it with a fundamental rhythmic theme all the way through. All the tempos are related: either half or double or dotted quarter note of the tempo. He didn\u2019t really explain the rhythmic ideas to me. I had come to an agreement with him that I thought certain pieces were fast. My initial reaction to the aria was that it was too fast and he ended up doing it a lot slower, but for his own reasons. I concurred that the new piano, a Yamaha was sounding much more rhythmically defined in the left hand and he loved that sound. He was so razor sharp with his left hand. He loved the little Yamaha we had at Sounds Interchange and he ended up going over to Yamaha in the end because he loved that instantaneous response. It\u2019s like hitting a modern snare drum with a taught head versus the old 70s wallet snare drum with a big scoop in the middle. You hit it with a stick and it goes four inches down; the LA sound.<\/p>\n

During these sessions did you ever discuss his interest in the layered environmental audioscapes?
\n<\/strong>
\nOh, the soundscapes. I never worked with him on those. They were CBC shows so he used their sound effects libraries. He loved doing it because he loved culture and he spent hundreds of hours on the project. They paid him very little money to create them. It most likely worked out to about forty-two cents an hour. Glenn was being offered over a million dollars a recital, but he didn\u2019t want anything to do with live performance. He wanted to make the perfect recording and have that one on one relationship between performer and the listener. He wasn\u2019t into going back into performing and having to interpret a piece of music the way the audience thought it should be. People would give him standing ovations, even though he know he did not do his best or what he really wanted to do, and he couldn\u2019t accept that.<\/p>\n

As a result of his need for the perfect recording did he ever overdub parts?
\n<\/strong>
\nMy first live recording of an orchestra was Beethoven\u2019s second piano concerto; Glenn was conducting. He flew a kid up from Julliard to play the piano part. One of Glenn\u2019s goals was to go back and perform some concertos works where he was conducting the orchestra and he was the pianist. So he would have had to overdub the piano. So, in the first experiment we tried we flew someone in and Glenn would just replace that piano part as much as he could.<\/p>\n

So the student\u2019s performance is in the background of the recording?
\n<\/strong>
\nThen Glenn would overlay his own performance as an option.<\/p>\n

When you listen to those recordings can you hear the student\u2019s performance?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Well, we got as far as recording the Beethoven concerto with the other piano player in Hamilton, but Glenn conducting techniques weren\u2019t that great back then. They were more like sweeping acrobatics. See the trouble with Glenn was that he would become so enamored with the music he wouldn\u2019t be the conductor anymore, he would be the fortunate listener. And even in his playing you can see that. He closes his eyes and he\u2019s enjoying what he\u2019s hearing. He has this one-on-one relationship and it\u2019s just a weird coincidence that he happens to be the piano player.
\nBut when Glenn was conducting he would be focused on the task for the first couple seconds, then he would lose himself, which was great. Even during Siegfried Idyll Tim Malone, the concertmaster would go into chamber mode and the players would cue off of each other and watch Glenn out of the corner of their eye. Glenn didn\u2019t have the discipline to stay on top of the music as a conductor. He was very thorough on his explanations and interpretations of what he was trying to do. He was taking the Siegfried Idyll that was typically\u00a0 seventeen minutes long and stretching it to twenty-four minutes with what he had done with piano transcriptions. From my personal view point, he was creating a very baroque\/romantic expression out of a late 19th century composition influenced by a quasi military march. The notes were very long and fragile sounding and\u00a0 that\u2019s why I love the intimacy of the pickup that\u2019s so exposed and so vulnerable.
\nHowever, his conducting was left-handed and after I while I couldn\u2019t even follow him. The players for Siegfried Idyll were great, they had such reverence for him, but in Hamilton it didn\u2019t work that way, they had a bit of a bad attitude. They weren\u2019t respectful.<\/p>\n

Were you using the Hamilton Symphony Orchestra?
\n<\/strong>
\nYes, players from that. At a point where the chart read TACET for the strings I was trying to find where noise was coming from and when I soloed their pickup I could hear them talking. They were rude.<\/p>\n

I guess orchestras can get a little unruly at times.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yeah, I used to point them out on sessions sometimes. Anyway, the Hamilton players didn\u2019t respect him. Then Victor Dalbello his friend from Stratford said, \u201cI\u2019m going to do more research,\u201d and then hand picked the musicians for \u201cSiegfried Idyll.\u201d It made an immense difference.<\/p>\n

Were they from the Toronto Symphony Orchestra?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Many of them were, and then Glenn made a point of learning all their names beforehand. He convinced them how we were going to record the session. We recorded it in sections chronologically working from the very beginning to the last note. It took three sessions. Glenn had this impeccable and uncanny ability to approve takes on the fly \u2013 we\u2019d do two or three takes of an insert \u2013 and he knew it would work with the previous recorded piece. He would choose his edit points. I didn\u2019t have to sit down with him to pick edit points. We had been working together for awhile by then, so we could easily agree on edit points that would work for both of us. He would say, \u201cThis is a place where we can edit.\u201d<\/p>\n

He knew your gift for editing.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Not really a gift, but more like I possessed good luck. He\u2019d seen how I\u2019d edited some of the difficult pieces with some of my crazy techniques. I would rewind the quarter inch tape a couple of notes where there was a definite transient and he knew that would be my cue point for the edit. When the edit worked we would move on and progressively work our way en route to the end. It was genuinely interesting, at the end of the session he said, \u201cBreath taking. This is great.\u201d The orchestra gave Glenn a big round of applause. Then he said, \u201cVictor will be sending cheques in the mail this week\u201d, and they all chuckled. When he decided to go back to re-record parts of the Idyll again, it presented real challenges because I had to remember where all the mics were placed and the balances and he had to remember tempos and dynamics. We both did not make any recording notes for the original session because we both thought the original recording was a one time event and experiment. We were editing into a two-track-1\/4 inch master and only had one back up, so I had one or two chances at getting the editing right.<\/p>\n

So you were recording to two-track not multi-track. So you went in with the same rig and hoped for the best.
\n<\/strong>
\nYeah, we matched the meters and I had a playback system set up so I could play back the previous take that we had to redo. I sat there with a timer, measure 13.3 seconds and say, \u201cGlenn, 13.1 to 13.5 seconds would work.\u201d Then he would do a couple of takes and instinctively knew what would work much more than I did.<\/p>\n

What was the rig you used to record Siegfried Idyll?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I used five U87s and a little Studer recorder.\u00a0\u00a0 \u00a0But, it was great when we were editing he said, \u201cYou know the section where I\u2019m thanking them, they all applaud and then I tell them that the cheques are in the mail? Edit the applause out and put it after I said the cheques are in the mail.\u201d When we went back to play the edited recording for the musicians they were all embarrassed because they thought that they had originally acted like that. So Glenn had a boisterous laugh. He said, \u201cSee what we can do with editing?\u201d That was funny.<\/p>\n

Before we finish this interview, I have to ask you what it was like to work with Jack Richardson?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Jack was a great guy. He was really good for the industry for a long period of time, but even his production model went out of fashion. Jack came in during the days of Alice Cooper and the Guess Who and those people didn\u2019t have any idea how to make a recording. Jack knew a bit about recording from his time in advertising and he was a musician. There were a lot of egos back then and these bands needed total direction; they needed a dictator. He had to pick every note and every shot.
\nI remember working with him on Kim Mitchell. Jack hated when the drummer hit the rim and the snare drum at the same time. He just liked the snare drum sound not the rim, but Kim likes the sound of the rimshot. Jack said, \u201cNot on my record!\u201d That used to work, but not now. But, back in the day Jack trying to get the drummer to hit one area on the snare drum consistently was a feat. He didn\u2019t like hearing the pitch of the snare drum note change a lot.
\nYou know, I haven\u2019t been putting padding or muting on drums for the last fifteen years. I\u2019ve even done demonstrations where the transients are at least 3db different with muting on a drum. Even though you deaden the ringing of the heads slightly, the attack suffers too. Muting restricts the velocity of the head from the instant the drum is struck; you\u2019re telling it to shut up. A lot of guys, when they hear a drum ringing they say, \u201cOh, we can\u2019t have that.\u201d I say, \u201cWait until you add everything else in; you\u2019ll never hear it.\u201d When I was working at OIART with Sarah Smith they had all these little rubber stickies on every drum. I took them all off and hid them behind the tape machine. It was great because the drummer didn\u2019t want them on either. I used to tell the guys when they said they could hear the toms ringing \u201cGo put your head in front of that guitar amp and tell me if you can still hear the tom ringing?\u201d You\u2019re never going to hear it in the final listening.
\nThey also had pads on all the mics so nothing would ever distort because the preamps never overload, but the world\u2019s best pads still kind of choke the transient. So I said, \u201cTake them all off or turn the pads down.\u201d Even if the snare drum distorts ever so slightly, it\u2019s all noise. That\u2019s all it is. It\u2019s noise to begin with. A lot of guys these days say, \u201cI love analog recording snare drums.\u201d That\u2019s because the analog tape gets saturated with signal quickly. If you have a snare drum with a big peak the analog tape will rounds out the top by clipping which creates harmonic distortion. The overall loudness of the drum sounds louder because you\u2019re hearing more of the duration of the drum. The analog tape is compressing the snare, but it\u2019s distorting it at the same time. They say, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t really hear it.\u201d That\u2019s because it\u2019s not really a musical instrument, it\u2019s all noise in the first place.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Kevin Doyle is a Juno Award winner and Grammy nominee. He has worked with the likes of Hall & Oates, Anne Murray, The Chieftans, Glenn Gould, Kiss, Sinead O\u2019 Conor and Van Morrison, to name only a few. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[60],"tags":[5],"class_list":["post-2256","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-articles-editorials-provocations","tag-interviews","author-ted-peacock"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2256","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2256"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2256\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":2366,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2256\/revisions\/2366"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2256"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2256"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2256"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}