{"id":640,"date":"2007-10-28T22:46:40","date_gmt":"2007-10-28T22:46:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/arpjournal.com\/?p=640"},"modified":"2011-09-29T02:34:32","modified_gmt":"2011-09-29T02:34:32","slug":"transcription-of-producer-and-engineer-wing-event","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/transcription-of-producer-and-engineer-wing-event\/","title":{"rendered":"Transcription of Producer and Engineer Wing Event"},"content":{"rendered":"

March 24, 2008<\/strong><\/p>\n

Baird Auditorium \u2013 Museum of Natural History<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Shannon Emamali<\/strong>:\u00a0 Good evening, I am Shannon Emamali and I am the executive director of the Recording Academy\u2019s Washington, DC Chapter.\u00a0 Welcome to our first actual Producer and Engineers event we\u2019ve had here for the Chapter.\u00a0\u00a0 We\u2019ve had it in other cities but we actually haven\u2019t had it here in Washington, DC, so I first want to welcome all of our Academy members.\u00a0 For all those non-Academy members, I think tonight is tonight is a great inkling of the type of programming that we are doing 364 days of the year, outside of our Grammy ceremony.\u00a0 Before we get started there is a couple of people I want to acknowledge: I first want to give major, major thanks to the co-chairs of our P&E Wing here locally, Mr. James McKinney (long pause for clapping) and Richard Burgess, who will be serving as our moderator later on, but also has graciously opened the doors of the Baird Auditorium for us to hold this event here tonight.\u00a0 I also want to want to acknowledge, we have a special treat, all the way from our national office, in Santa Monica, we have Ms. Maureen Droney who is the executive director of our Producers and Engineers wing (pause) and she will be here with us all evening, all night.\u00a0 So, I really encourage all of you to get to her, pick her brain, she is just so brilliant and knows this so, so well.\u00a0 Before we get started I want to bring to the stage our VP of Government Relations and Advocacy to deliver a couple of messages about some really important initiatives that we are doing and with us being here, right here in Washington, DC some things that we can really grasp hold of and take a leadership role as far [as] of a couple of initiatives that we have our hands wrapped over.\u00a0 So if you could please welcome Mr. Daryl Friedman.<\/p>\n

Daryl Friedman: <\/strong>Thank you, thanks for being here tonight and thanks to Shannon and the Chapter for allowing me to say a couple of words about what we are working on.\u00a0 You are here for a very specific reason, you are here to hear from these experts about how to make money and get compensated by your work as producers.\u00a0 And they are going to talk to you about how you can get paid, how much you should get paid, what mechanism collects, and how often they should be paying out, things like that that are very important issues.\u00a0 But what if I told you there was one instance where a user of your music said they don\u2019t have to pay you at all.\u00a0 And they are saying furthermore, to add insult to injury, that not only are we not going to pay your for your music, but we are actually doing you a favor by not paying you for your music.\u00a0 And, to make things even worse, they got the law written in a way that actually makes what they are doing completely legal.\u00a0 And, that\u2019s not fiction.\u00a0 This situation actually exists today in America, only, and that\u2019s with AM\/FM radio broadcasters.\u00a0 They are allowed to use sound recordings and not compensate artists, background session players, singers, producers of course, and anyone who makes those sound recordings.\u00a0 This is unique in the world.\u00a0 The rest of the developed world broadcasters pay to use the records that make them the advertising and make them money.\u00a0 Here it is different.\u00a0 Even in America, satellite radio pays you when they play your work, internet web casters pay you when they play your work, so why should the richest and biggest platform of all, AM\/FM terrestrial radio have an exemption?\u00a0 Well, the answer is simply they have power and they muscle and they have managed to write this into the law for decades.\u00a0 And, since I would say the \u201830s, people like us have been trying to change this and said, \u201cThis is an injustice, let\u2019s fix it.\u201d And, since the \u201830s, they failed.\u00a0 Until, a couple of months ago.\u00a0 Our campaign, The Music First Coalition, got two bills introduced in Congress, one in the House and one in the Senate, bipartisan bills, sponsored by the highest folks in Congress that will finally rectify this injustice.\u00a0 But, we need your help to get this done because we are up against a pretty powerful foe and they have a lot of money, they have lot of people and they have broadcasters all over the country who are trying to keep their exemption in place and make sure that they don\u2019t have to pay any music creator for using their work and for bringing in 21 billion dollars a year, which is what they bring in off of your creations.\u00a0 So how do we change this and how can you help?\u00a0 Well, I\u2019ll give you a quick example, last, two weeks ago on Capitol Hill the broadcasters had their Lobby Day.\u00a0 They brought in 600 broadcasters from around the country to fan out on Capitol Hill and make sure their message was heard loud and clear.\u00a0 We compiled, the Academy and other music organizations, AFM and AFTRA and others, got together about 40 musicians.\u00a0 They had something that the broadcasters didn\u2019t have, I\u2019m not gonna say talent, although that is probably true, but they had musical instruments and they had the passion to go out through the Hill and actually got more attention on Capitol Hill to our side of the cause than those 600 broadcasters because they were the individuals who make music, and they actually matter, you matter to Capitol Hill.\u00a0 So I want to encourage you to be a part of this campaign because we need you to carry this over the goalpost, and its going to be a hard fight, but there is information that you got when you checked in.\u00a0 Please look it over.\u00a0 The MusicFirst Campaign is really designed to finally bring in millions of dollars to music creators who have never been paid when their works are being played.\u00a0 It\u2019s time for a change.\u00a0 You could do something tonight when you get home to help us.\u00a0 You can go to Grammy.com\/musicfirst, and that information is in the handout you got.\u00a0 In two seconds, you can send a message to your member of Congress telling them this is important to you as their constituent, as you are their boss, they\u2019ll listen to you, and hopefully get enough momentum going where these two bills will become law and music creators will be able to be compensated for everything they do, including airplay on radio.\u00a0 So, I encourage you to look this information over, I\u2019ll be around in the back of the hall if you have any questions and thank you for the support, please enjoy tonight\u2019s panel, and here is Shannon again.\u00a0 Thank you.<\/p>\n

SE: <\/strong>Thanks, Daryl.\u00a0 It was probably about, at least, 8 months ago when James, Richard and I we hosted a P&E meeting with local producers and we said, \u201cHow can we better service you?\u201d\u00a0 And so this idea and concept said, you know, tell us about compensation models, how are they doing?\u00a0 The music industry has changed so much.\u00a0 Help us navigate through this.\u00a0 And it really took us about 8 months to figure out the key individuals who were seasoned, but were willing to be open and honest and talk about how they maximize their dollars right now as a producer.\u00a0 So we are really, really thrilled to have hand-picked every single one of our panelists, they come from all over the country, with us this evening.\u00a0 As our moderator, we have Mr. Richard James Burgess who is currently the director of Marketing and Sales for the Smithsonian Folkways Recordings.\u00a0 With over 40 years of international music business experience as a multi-platinum record producer, artist, musician, engineer, manager, label and booking agency, he is the owner and author of the book, \u201cThe Art of Music Production.\u201d\u00a0 Please help me to welcome to the stage Richard James Burgess, who will be our moderator.<\/p>\n

Richard James Burgess: <\/strong>Thank you Shannon.\u00a0 And, I\u2019d also like to thank Maureen Droney for everything she does for the Producer and Engineer wing, it\u2019s absolutely fabulous Maureen.\u00a0 It\u2019s wonderful of you to come in, and of course, James McKinney who is the co-chair of the Producer and Engineer Wing for the DC Chapter.\u00a0 But, of course these events don\u2019t happen without a lot of behind the scenes effort and Shannon Emamali, who just introduced me, has really been absolutely sterling and gone above and beyond the call of duty to do this.\u00a0 And, I also must notice Wendy Cherry and Nina Harley from the DC Chapter office who have also done a great deal to make this happen, so thank you to those people.\u00a0 And while we are in the thanking mood, I really want to say thank you so much to Daryl Friedman, who just spoke to you about the legislation for issues because Daryl does so much to move things forward in this area and it\u2019s kind of an un-sung thing that he does.\u00a0 But, he is making a difference for everybody and I think that this legislation, if it goes through, will make history for the music business in America.\u00a0 So, please do what he said and log on and tell your reps that this is something that is important to you and important to the music business.\u00a0 Well, we are very fortunate, as Shannon said, to have a panel of such high-profile guests tonight and the Producer and Engineer Wing is extremely grateful to each of them for taking time out of their busy schedules, and I really want to thank you gentlemen.\u00a0 I am personally really excited to hear what they have to say about this very hot topic of producer compensation.\u00a0 I am sure everybody in this room is sure that the music industry is undergoing some drastic change and it is becoming quite difficult to continue doing what we love to do and to actually make a living at it.\u00a0\u00a0 The four people on this panel, as Shannon said, are all very successful.\u00a0 They all have a cutting edge grasp of what\u2019s happening in the industry and I think tonight we will walk out here with some real insights into how they are dealing with these changes and how it is possible to deal with these changes in the industry.\u00a0 We are going to have a Q&A session at the end of the discussion and we have two mics, one over there and one over here, I think we will move them into the aisles.\u00a0 So, if you want to ask a question we are recording everything here and videoing everything for possible webstreaming later and so we would love to get your questions on tape as well, so if you could line up at the mics, we would appreciate that.\u00a0 Now, it\u2019s my pleasure to introduce our panelists, and I want to start on the far end with Sandy Roberton, who revealed to us tonight that this is the first panel that he\u2019s ever done.\u00a0 So we are really honored to have you Sandy and Sandy is a long-time veteran of the industry.\u00a0 He started out as a producer himself in the \u201870s and then he actually began managing other producers in the \u201870s as well.\u00a0 He is now the president of World\u2019s End Producer Management, which is really one of the biggest producer management companies in the world and one of the first as well.\u00a0 His clients include a who\u2019s who of producers and the artists they produce in many cases are household names.\u00a0 He actually represents, Joe, sitting next to him, Jack Endino, David Kershenbaum, Larry Klein, Danny Kortchmar, Nick Launay, Steve Lillywhite, Tim Palmer, Jason Goldstein to name a few and some of the artists his producers have worked with include Neil Young, Ozzy Osbourne, Shania Twain, Bob Dylan, Nirvana, Pharrell, Beyonce, Herbie Hancock, U2, the list goes on and on.\u00a0 It\u2019s absolutely immense.\u00a0 I am not even scratching the surface of it.\u00a0 So, thank you very much Sandy and I know Sandy has a lot of really wonderful insights into what is going on.\u00a0 To Sandy\u2019s left and your right is Joe Blaney.\u00a0 Joe is a New York based engineer, producer, [and] mixer.\u00a0 He\u2019s done an incredible range of eclectic and multi-genre projects.\u00a0 He started out actually as a guitar player and an electronics technician.\u00a0 He started as a tech at Electric Lady Studios in their heyday in New York City.\u00a0 His first gig was actually mixing The Clash\u2019s single, \u201cRadio Clash,\u201d and then he recorded the album Combat Rock<\/em>, which featured the classic rock hits, \u201cRock the Casbah,\u201d and \u201cShould I Stay or Should I Go?\u201d\u00a0 He\u2019s worked with The Ramones, Keith Richards, Prince, Will Party, Soul Asylum, Tom Waits, Blues Traveler, Shawn Colvin, Lauryn Hill, The B-52\u2019s, Roseanne Cash, The Raveonettes, and comedian Dennis Leary, again, just to name just a few.\u00a0 But what is also interesting about Joe is that he has this international side of his career and he\u2019s done work for Warner Music Spain, Sony and Universal Japan, and he has produced or mixed over 25 rock en espanol albums.\u00a0 So, we are going to be talking about that in a second as well.\u00a0 To Joe\u2019s left is the legendary Jimmy Douglass.\u00a0 Jimmy has a who\u2019s who resume as well as a producer, engineer and mixer, stretching from classic rock to hip-hop.\u00a0 He\u2019s worked with The Stones, Aretha Franklin, Billy Cobham, Justin Timberlake, Jay-Z, Cassandra Wilson, Roxy Music, Foreigner, Jodeci, Aaliyah, Ginuwine, Timbaland, Missy Elliot, in the varying genres of pop, electronic, jazz, R&B, funk and rock and roll.\u00a0 Jimmy began in the early \u201870s while he was still in kindergarden, I believe, actually he was in high school at the time, and he was smart enough at that young age to get himself in a position to observe and work with some of the greatest producers and engineers of all time.\u00a0 And, three of my personal favorites, Tom Dowd, Jerry Wexler and Arif Martin.\u00a0 And, Jerry Wexler let him use the facility to make demos, and apparently he never looked back.\u00a0 And then, last but not least we have Rob Finan.\u00a0 Rob is an attorney, based in Atlanta, with the firm Greenberg Trauwig.\u00a0 Greenberg Trauwig was ranked USA Law Firm of the Year last year and Rob\u2019s speciality is giving advice and counsel to high-profile multi-platinum recording artists, producers, managers, publishers and songwriters, regarding the various legal and business transactions within the entertainment industry.\u00a0 In particular, what we are interested in tonight is that he negotiates and drafts agreements for record producers, record mixers, licensing agreements, motion picture soundtrack agreements and recording agreements.\u00a0 So, as you know, the title of the panel is \u201cMaking Cents: From Beats to Bank Accounts: Maximizing Your Income as a Producer,\u201d and what we are going to be talking about tonight is how to be successful and make money in this business as it stands today and going forward.\u00a0 We will also try to look at how to balance the creative aspects of what we do with the business side, because, as you are probably are aware, they are interdependent, and I think becoming more interdependent than they ever have been.\u00a0 I want to start with Sandy because Sandy has this bird\u2019s eye view of what\u2019s going on.\u00a0 He deals with all the major labels, he deals with the independent labels and he sees pretty much all genres of the production and engineering business.\u00a0 And what I wanted to ask you Sandy is, \u201cWho is today\u2019s producer?\u00a0 What elements make for a successful career as a producer or engineer in the current environment, in your opinion?\u201d<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton: <\/strong>Well, I made some notes this afternoon and this is how difficult a time we are going through and how much it has changed, that in America right now, in the major labels, there are probably only 20 people who can authorize the signing of an act.\u00a0 So you imagine if you are starting off as an act and trying to get a deal how difficult it is when there is only 20 people in major labels can make a decision to sign you.\u00a0 Producers now have to find eggs, and develop eggs and not think they are coming into the business to be hired.\u00a0 I think producers have to go back to the way there were perhaps in the \u201850s and \u201860s and be entrepreneurs.\u00a0 I think it is the only way forward for producers.\u00a0 It is so easy now to put out your own records.\u00a0 Why sign to a major?\u00a0 You can put records up for nothing on iTunes, eMusic, soon it\u2019s going to be Amazon, and the only money you will need to promote those records is the marketing money.\u00a0 Now, you can probably get that from the bands playing live or an investor, but to sign away on some of the deals we were talking about today, these 360 deals that labels are making you sign, I think it\u2019s probably better for producers to try and find acts, develop them and produce the records themselves.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Thank you, and we\u2019ve talked about this a lot in the past and so you are encouraging your producers to go out and find artists and develop them at this point, is that correct?<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>Well, I\u2019m gonna be honest here, this year in the same period of time, compared to the same period in 2006, in 2006 we did 49 contracted projects, this year, same period, we did 23.\u00a0 So, you can see the drop of projects.\u00a0 And, the money is even down.\u00a0 So, if a producer is going to survive in the business right now, he\u2019s got to think of a different way.\u00a0 Just thinking that the phone\u2019s gonna ring and he\u2019s going to get hired, I think that is over.\u00a0 The producer has to think on his feet, he has to find a band, develop it, and shop it.\u00a0 Work out a deal with a band, become a partner with the band, and shop it.\u00a0 Or, put it out yourself.\u00a0 I mean, I\u2019ve got two labels now, which are just digital, and through those labels, any producer I represent can put out records and we market them ourselves.\u00a0 And we hired some companies to market.\u00a0 But, the days have changed so much from when I was a producer.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>Yes, and how have they changed, how have you seen them change?\u00a0 Back then, how was it for you?<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Well, there were multiple projects you could choose from.\u00a0 When I came to America, 21 years ago, someone like Tim Palmer, who I was representing, I represented Tim for around 27 years, from when he was a tape operator.\u00a0 And he might have a choice of 15 projects to choose from and you would go through the projects and think, \u201cWho is the manager?\u00a0 Who is the label?\u201d trying to pick the best one.\u00a0 Now, you don\u2019t have a choice.\u00a0 If there is a project and it\u2019s a good band, you have to go for it.\u00a0\u00a0 Because I went to a show this week, or last week in LA and I think there must have been about 10 producers there, chasing down this one project.\u00a0 It\u2019s very, very competitive now to get a gig.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Well, Jimmy you\u2019ve been in the business in the early \u201870s, you\u2019ve seen a lot of changes.\u00a0 Can you talk about what\u2019s happening now and how you are managing to stay alive?<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglass: <\/strong>Well, I actually have a question, an interesting question.\u00a0 Because it seems like an audience that really, how many people here have been to the record store in the last two months?\u00a0 (surveys audience)\u00a0 So, that\u2019s like half the crowd.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> No, a quarter.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>A quarter of the crowd basically.\u00a0 So first of all, that whole way of doing business is actually changing very much because most people don\u2019t go to the record store anymore.\u00a0 So, the other part of what he was describing is the fact is the money is less because the way the revenue stream is coming in, is less.\u00a0 And they are not really selling records anymore.\u00a0 The one thing that I agree with him on, with you think of production, all these words are now blurred, by the way.\u00a0 I see people come to me all the time they say, \u201cProduction, engineering, mixing,\u201d all this stuff, and its all the same job.\u00a0 It really has become, you know, \u201cI\u2019m a mixer, they say I\u2019m pretty good,\u201d but I do that but then, I look and I listen and I go, \u201cYou know what?\u201d many times somebody who is working on something should probably be responsible for finishing up because they have the vision and the tools are available, you know, unlike the old days where you had the big board, you had the big thing, everybody couldn\u2019t afford that, they couldn\u2019t afford the time, they couldn\u2019t afford the knowledge, you know, to be able to work a big studio and all the mystery involved with that. Now you go to the store, you spend a couple of grand, you sit, you work at home, you figure out that you can get good at that particular part of the craft.\u00a0 You can now see your vision to the end, pretty much, and have a competitive product.\u00a0 I\u2019m not gonna say that it\u2019s gonna be the same as the man who spends a lot more money with a lot more input but I think, my phrase is, you either get it or you don\u2019t get it at the end of the day when you are making a product.\u00a0 People either get it or they don\u2019t get it.\u00a0 If they don\u2019t get it, they don\u2019t get it.\u00a0 You can spend another 100,000 dollars if you want to and they are not going to get it.\u00a0 So, the thing is I really believe that, the word ownership keeps coming to me, and maybe you don\u2019t own but you share with the band.\u00a0 You find a band, you find an act, band, act, singer, whatever it be, and you basically partner with them because inside of the talent lies what you are going to end up selling and whoever is attached to the talent has to be dealt with.\u00a0 If not, they have a million choices as to where they can go. You know, as Sandy was saying, I dare to say how many people in this room actually own studios?<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m done, I\u2019ll see you later.\u00a0 But, you know, that basically is the point that everybody and their brother has a studio and you know, they have different talent, but you know, when it comes to a label and trying to find out what they need, the act is the only thing that they really do have.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Right.\u00a0 Well, you said an interesting thing once in an interview once about how the studio was a mystery back when, back in the \u201870s it was kind of a magical place, you trusted the people there and now that is not the case.\u00a0 You know, people come in and they know about EQ, reverb and compression . . .<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> Well, they think they know. . .<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>That\u2019s very true.\u00a0 But that\u2019s really changing the relationship you find in terms of things?<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>Well, the relationship has changed because theoretically, they can do what I can do.\u00a0 Anything I can do, they can do and hopefully they can do it better, so they believe.\u00a0 And so therefore it has leveled that whole part of the playing field.\u00a0 It\u2019s not as important to worry about the how anymore, you know, when you had a big studio and you couldn\u2019t afford it was like \u201cHow am I going to get this idea to sound like that?\u201d\u00a0 but you can do that now.\u00a0 I mean, I can do it, half of us here can probably do it in the next hour.\u00a0 And it will sound like that.\u00a0 So that\u2019s no longer the issue, the issue is really, what do you have to bring to the table?\u00a0 What do you have to bring to the table?\u00a0 Not what do you have to come to me to tell me that your stuff is so great, I mean, let me cut to the chase a little bit.\u00a0 I get a million people telling me about these great beats they have but, you know, we can all make beats and they are not all so great.\u00a0 They are just beats without songs attached to them.\u00a0 I\u2019ll give you a better story.\u00a0 I was working with Timbaland and Dr. Dre, and Dr. Dre came to Timbaland for something, that\u2019s interesting right?\u00a0 And, we were there all night and Timbaland he\u2019s whacking away, and he\u2019s making all these great things and Dre is cool, he\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, that\u2019s hot, that\u2019s hot,\u201d and they are going on and on.\u00a0 And he said, \u201cJimmy, you know that thing I did the other day over at the other studio?\u201d and I said, \u201cYes.\u201d\u00a0 \u201cPut that up,\u201d so I put it up.\u00a0 And on that particular track, Timbaland had already done his vision of the track with the vocal line and the whole thing and Dre went, \u201cThat\u2019s what I came for!!\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cWe could have gone home hours ago man!!\u201d\u00a0 And then Timbaland said, \u201cWell, take this beat here,\u201d and he said, \u201cMan, I have 50,000 beats!\u00a0 I can make beats!\u201d\u00a0 My point being, without the songs attached to it, all you have is a beat and anybody can make a beat.\u00a0 I\u2019m done.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>Thank you, I wanted to turn it over to Joe because Joe, you have come up with some pretty innovative ways to vary what you do on projects.\u00a0 You like to work on interesting projects, and sometimes there is not a big budget attached to those projects.<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney:<\/strong> I have changed my business model a lot.\u00a0 When I first started, it was always things for major labels and even a new band would have over 100,000 dollars to make a record and now I do things from making EP\u2019s for 2,500 dollars and a whole album of a rock band in nine days.\u00a0 I just try to find artists who I feel have the potential and try to work quickly and efficiently and you know, trust your intuition, you know, bring the most out of what they have and generally look for something that is special in what the artist has to offer and you know, just bring it out and if you spend too much time on it now you are losing your shirt so you have to work quicker and do it like that.\u00a0 I still occasionally do records where you have a big budget and you can spend 6 or 7 weeks and take your time.\u00a0 But, I kinda believe what is missing now are the, there is a lot of music out there but you have to find the really special artists who have good music and good singing and good songs and try to help them along.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> And you are able to do that with the kinds of budgets people are coming to you with?<\/p>\n

JB:<\/strong> Yeah, well I opened my own studio about 10 years ago and I do all-in deals and I still want to be a perfectionist and spend more time on it and get it better, but you just have to learn how to work quicker and be efficient and do a good job in a shorter amount of time.\u00a0 Good planning and get to know the material, you know.\u00a0 It\u2019s a little more difficult, but you can do it.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Very good.\u00a0 Well, I wanted to move over to Rob because Rob works on really, really high end projects in terms of the kinds of deals, major label deals and so forth, but obviously being on the legal side he has a good feel for the producer compensation models so, I wondered if you would like to talk about what you see in terms of what producers are getting these days and points, and advances, what the range is, and how much work you are seeing.\u00a0 Are you seeing a decrease in the amount of work coming across your desk?<\/p>\n

Rob Finan:<\/strong> Yeah, I think the music industry has changed more so in the past five years more than any other time in music history.\u00a0 Before going into private practice, I worked in Sony Music which has Columbia Records, which has one of the deepest catalogs of any of the labels and you could see throughout history there was relatively consistent until about 5 years ago when [there was] the downturn in the industry.\u00a0 He touched on the 360 deals where the labels are trying to take a piece of ancillary income of artists.\u00a0 It\u2019s not going to impact the producers as much, but because of that, we are seeing a lot of our producer clients, you know, the work is not as vigorous as it once was.\u00a0 The days of the 150,000 dollar track are probably gone, they are gone, and as crazy as it sounds it was not too long ago, probably 5 years ago where there were quite a few $100,000 or 150,000 tracks that were being produced.\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t happen much anymore.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong> And that was just the advance, right?<\/p>\n

RF: <\/strong>That would be the advance.\u00a0 So it\u2019s really impacting right now the amount of work that\u2019s happening for producers.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>With the different kinds of deals that are happening now, with the 360 deals you say are not affecting producers at the moment because there is no way for them to participate in the merchandise or touring income, which I don\u2019t think would be right anyway, but what about these new kinds of deals, well digital for instance.\u00a0 Are you doing all digital contracts at all?<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> Yeah, a lot of labels are testing the waters with just doing digital type deals and digital releases.\u00a0 It\u2019s kinda interesting, over the last year or so, you see Wal-Mart coming out very aggressively on physical CD\u2019s sales and I think it was in September they released a statement to all the record companies that effectively, disproportionate amount of shelf space to their sales and because of that they are going to start pairing back.\u00a0 I would envision that someday you are going to walk into all the big box distributors, the Best Buys and the Wal-Marts and it will probably be a rack on the back wall.\u00a0 All the physical, it will be the top 100, the top 50.\u00a0 They have already talked about aggressive pricing campaigns out of Wal-Mart for their top 25 where it will be released in the sub $10 range.\u00a0 So that\u2019s a big hit to the artists and obviously it trickles down to the producer.\u00a0 But, I mean, I think the compensation model is pretty much going to stay the same from the major standpoint.\u00a0 You are still going to get points on a record: 2, 3, 4, points, a superstar artist could get as much as 5 and 6 points on a record, although that is really high.\u00a0 There\u2019s mechanisms in there that will account for the different digital distribution models that are there and all the ancillary things that are happening right now.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> As far as the points go, you are seeing an average royalty for a producer is still around a 3 to 4 percent range?<\/p>\n

RF: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>And that\u2019s 3 or 4 percent of retail, right?<\/p>\n

RF: <\/strong>Correct.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>But based on the same way that the artist deal is calculated.<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> Correct.\u00a0 A producer deal is typically piggy-backed off the artist deal so the producer is compensated and his royalties are calculated in the same way that the artist he is producing is calculated.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> And what about these split-profits deals?<\/p>\n

RF: <\/strong>That\u2019s happening more and more now.\u00a0 There is one label now, in particular, that is offering profit split deals, not necessarily 50-50, but a true profit split model which is somewhat new.\u00a0 Before profit splits were typically offered to labels, independent labels, or that type of thing where they would do label deals.\u00a0 But now they are offering them to artists which does make the compensation for a producer that much more difficult.\u00a0 Historically when you had a points deal, you piggy-backed off the artist.\u00a0 The computation was the exact same, in fact you used the extracts from the underlying artist deal and there is no negotiating that.\u00a0 But now with the profit-split deal, the artist might not want to give the producers a piece of that profit split.\u00a0 And so you are left with negotiating royalty terms and actually doing almost effectively the same negotiations you would under a recording agreement between an artist and a label, and you are now forced to do that between the artist and the producer.\u00a0 The alternative to that would be to do a split where the producer would be receiving some percentage of whatever the income that the artist gets, whether it be 15 to 33 percent of whatever the artists\u2019 in-pocket would be. \u00a0That\u2019s a way to simplify the negotiations than basically have to do a full-blown agreement where, if you have ever seen a recording agreement, the calculations are pretty onerous.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Yeah.\u00a0 I have a question actually, how many people are producing in some form or another at moment?\u00a0 Ok, so a lot.\u00a0 The second part of the question is how many of you always have a contract when you produce a record?\u00a0 Ok, not so many.\u00a0 Well Sandy, I am interested to know, I know as a manager that is an important aspect of what you do correct?\u00a0 You always make sure your producers have contracts before they go into a situation?<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Absolutely, and it\u2019s quite difficult to get lawyers who are representing the band to deal with this because normally a lawyer, if it\u2019s a new band the lawyer will do the band\u2019s contract and then he is getting paid for that, and then when you try to get the producer contract done he doesn\u2019t really want to do it because he is not getting any extra money.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s always a slow process, if you are representing a producer or the producer is representing himself you have to get your contract done as soon as possible and make sure that you get what is called a Letter of Direction so that you get paid direct from the label.\u00a0 Because most bands are unrecouped and have no money to pay you, and if you are being paid by the band you\u2019ll never get the money.\u00a0 You have to be paid by the label.\u00a0 So that\u2019s what you get.\u00a0 You get a Letter of Direction which is a direction from the band telling the label to pay you and once the band signs that, at least you can chase the label to get your money.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> And actually there is a second Letter of Direction which you need to get which is to SoundExchange to make sure you receive your digital webstreaming royalties, which is something that is super important, because producers cannot access the money from web radio without having that Letter of Direction from the artist and your best chance of getting that Letter of Direction is right at the time when you do the deal. If you try to go back and do it later, it\u2019s going to be extremely difficult to get it.\u00a0 And I believe, the Recording Academy, or SoundExchange actually is offering a sample Letter of Direction on their website.<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>One other point I want to make.\u00a0 I think the more and more of these 360 style deals that labels are insisting on, that is going to drive producers and artists to just forget the majors and just do it themselves.\u00a0 Because frankly, if they can do it themselves and sell records, they will make a lot more money than they would if they were signed to a major.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> On what basis are you suggesting that producers sign artists, to their production company, as a production deal?<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Well, if a producer\u2019s got a studio, he\u2019s taking the risk.\u00a0 I think, you know one thing that Rob was saying, I think producers should get a piece of the action more than just a royalty.\u00a0 When I represented The Matrix, Avril Lavigne was about to be dropped by Arista.\u00a0 They had completely tried to do tracks with her with a number of people and they had it all wrong.\u00a0 They thought that she was going to be a country act.\u00a0 They were about to drop her and I was sitting in George Shearivin\u2019s office and he said, \u201cWe\u2019ve got this girl, I think we are going to drop her,\u201d and I said, \u201cIf you pay for the airfare out to LA, put her up in the Oakwoods, its very cheap, The Matrix will spec some tracks.\u201d\u00a0 She arrived at the studio, they didn\u2019t know what to expect, and she walked in, she was very grumpy and very miserable, she said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to be a country act, I want to be a punky act.\u201d\u00a0 Well basically they said, \u201cGo back to the hotel, we\u2019ll come up with some stuff.\u201d\u00a0 And then they wrote, that day they wrote, \u201cComplicated\u201d and they wrote, the other song was in a movie, I can\u2019t remember, it wasn\u2019t on the album, \u201cFalling Down,\u201d I think it was called.\u00a0 And she came back the next day, she made a few changes, a few lyric changes and they cut the track and they L.A. Reid heard it and said, \u201cThat\u2019s it.\u00a0 That\u2019s the blueprint.\u201d\u00a0 Now, they went on to write 10 songs with her and not all the songs made the album because she fired her manager the day that she delivered the record, she fired her manager and hired a new one and then he wanted to get more tracks that she had a bigger share of the songs.\u00a0 But, the hits, the three big hits were The Matrix and I felt really they should have gotten a bit more part of the action than they got.\u00a0 There\u2019s an example where they really came up with a direction, they came up with a style and to this day, I mean, there was a headline in the New York Post<\/em> on Sunday, saying, \u201cUncomplicated,\u201d it was an article on her.\u00a0 They\u2019re still going on about \u201cSkaterboy,\u201d \u201cComplicated,\u201d and \u201cI\u2019m With You,\u2019 the three big hits.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> I guess that\u2019s why producers did get the $150,000 a track because they were the hit producers.<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>They didn\u2019t get that sort of money.\u00a0 They were just starting off.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Yeah, but they got the publishing and a producer royalty basically.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> I was the publisher, so. . .<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> But, now you would recommend that they do that on their own label or thorough a production company.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Well, they got $35,000 to produce that record, that is not a lot of money for somebody who delivered those amount of hits.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>The question is, this is the question about those $150,000 tracks, you see, in hip-hop that is where those kind of numbers come from. . .<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Well, they don\u2019t anymore. . .<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> And personally, I\u2019m gonna say personally, I don\u2019t think, it\u2019s just a studio, its just a beat.\u00a0 It\u2019s a value that\u2019s placed on it.\u00a0 But the question I was gonna ask you, because they only had so much up front, did those albums sell so that they got the money on the back end?\u00a0 Because those hip-hop people never see any money again.\u00a0 When they get the 150, they never see any money again because they took it all up front.\u00a0 You follow what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>Yeah, absolutely.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>So, did they ever get any money on the back end from selling all those units or did nothing happen.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Who, The Matrix?<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>Oh yeah, they did, yeah.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>So, it\u2019s equitable.<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>She sold 16 million albums.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>Right, so I\u2019m saying its equitable.\u00a0 So they got their money.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Yeah, oh yeah.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> I just wanted to make sure.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>So you are saying you would take higher points Jimmy, rather than a big advance up front.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>Well, that is definitely the way to go now.<\/p>\n

JB: <\/strong>You prefer the big advance if you can get it.<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>Not now.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>Well, there\u2019s a lot to be said for that.\u00a0 You know, when you have a lot of big advances you make a lot of money now, you have to pay Uncle Sam a lot of money now, as opposed to when you have an album like you are mentioning which is going to go on and sell for however long, you have money coming to you in the bank for quite some time.\u00a0 And it makes it easier for everybody else to be a part of it and allow you to be a part of it because it is not straining anybody up front.\u00a0 And I say with the new age you have to sacrifice something and I think that professional or non-professional, you have to give up something now to get something later.\u00a0 You have to work hard, you know, get in there and put your skin in there and believe in yourself because if you believe that you are really that great and that it is going to be that good, you will win somewhere along the line.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> The problem now is that sales figures are so down even if you have a 3 or 4 point royalty, are you ever going to see anything?\u00a0 Because if a record costs $200,000 to make, you\u2019ve got to sell 200 or 250,000 copies to recoup.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> But, does it really cost $200,000 to make?<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>Well, that\u2019s the budget they are spending I guess.\u00a0 And then, of course, they take marketing dollars out of it and a video costs 300 or a million.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> In England and Australia, it hasn\u2019t happened here yet and if it happens here, goodnight, but in England they charge producers back with TV advertising and in Australia they charge back the fair-share of TV advertising.\u00a0 So you\u2019ll get bands, who was the recent band, it will come to me in a second, but you\u2019ll get bands who are quite well established, who are unrecouped because they have done a lot of TV advertising and they get charged quite a big share.\u00a0 If that happens here, forget it.<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> The way the compensation model works traditionally, is that producers get paid to record one, but that is retroactive to record one after the label recoups their costs, their recording costs on the album.\u00a0 We have a producer-client who is watching his royalty, he\u2019s gets his statements, and it shows his royalty, which is a very large royalty just accruing.\u00a0 But, because the costs on the album were tremendous, he will likely never see that and we are trying to work, and that\u2019s, I think, horrible because as you were saying, did he get it in the back, you know, this guy is going to get hundreds of thousands of dollars the day that another 150,000 units are sold, and then he will get all of his money.\u00a0 But he did not receive a big up front advance.\u00a0 The band sold millions of records, but not enough to recoup those recording costs and its difficult.\u00a0 Opening that statement and seeing that you have $200,000 sitting there, but not until, when you project out, that band still needs to sell another 100,000 records.\u00a0 That might be. . .<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> The band was Snow Patrol.\u00a0 They were the band that decided that, you know, they had sold quite a few records and the TV advertising in the UK was so heavy that they were unrecouped.\u00a0 And they just, that\u2019s why they changed out their manager because they realized that the only way they were going to make money is to get a manager who could get them touring in America and that\u2019s when they switched to Q-Prime.\u00a0 So that they could get on the road and earn money that way because they weren\u2019t making any money through records and they had a big record here.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Right, well Jimmy, I think you were indicating that these costs are kinda highly inflated right?\u00a0 I mean, you\u2019ve worked with the greatest and yet you can make a record less expensively and so can Joe.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> Yeah, me and Joe can make expensive records.\u00a0 (laughter)<\/p>\n

JB: <\/strong>Yeah, I\u2019ve done it both ways.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>But are we suggesting to take the money and run?<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> No, no.\u00a0 Again, I think that\u2019s why producers and bands should just do it themselves, I really do.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> Control, basically control the whole thing.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Yes, because then they own the record.<\/p>\n

JD: <\/strong>Right, they own the record.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> So how do you structure that then, because if a band does a record themselves it costs them a buck fifty to manufacture the record, you could probably produce a record for $10,000 if the band can play.\u00a0 So, you know. . .<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> CD\u2019s are over, its going to be digital only.\u00a0 I live in LA, there is one record store now.\u00a0 If you go to Best Buy you can get maybe the top 20 but there is only Amoeba Records.\u00a0 They closed down Tower, they closed down Virgin, there is nowhere to buy CD\u2019s, it\u2019s, everything is going to be digital.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> So how does a producer get paid off of that then, because if you get a 4 point deal, 3 point deal whatever, it\u2019s kinda a bit irrelevant at that point.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> No, Rob touched on that.\u00a0 You do a percentage of what the band is getting.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong> You get anywhere like 25 or 30 percent of what the band is getting and that will be the appropriate royalty.\u00a0 Say a band is getting 16 and you are getting 4, it will be about 25 percent.\u00a0 So if a band is getting 7 bucks from iTunes, then the producer will 25 percent of that.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

JB: <\/strong>Can I ask one question?<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong> Yeah, please.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> And actually this is to Rob, I know that for the publishing and stuff the ringtones were counted for, but the production stuff is not.\u00a0 There is no percentage of the ringtone sale.\u00a0 I haven\u2019t seen any.<\/p>\n

RF: <\/strong>The mechanism for ringtones is going to be in, well, it depends on how it is accounted for to the artist.\u00a0 When ringtones first started coming out, ringtones were accounted for like third-party licensing.\u00a0 The way that third-party licensing works is the producer splits the bucket of money that the artist gets, they split it in proportion as Sandy was saying, 25 percent or whatever that ratio is.\u00a0 More recently, they have changed the agreement for digital downloads and streamings.\u00a0 Digital downloads are treated like a record and so you should receive some proportionate share of that.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> I am very curious, because you know, they get a lot of money for those ringtones, they get a lot of money for those ringtones.\u00a0 They get more than they get for iTunes downloads.\u00a0 They get as much as $2.50 for one of those suckers.\u00a0 That\u2019s hefty.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> And there are other sources of income too, these advertisting from P2P possibilities and these subscriptions from Rhapsody and eMusic and those kinds of things, how do you account for those in the producer contract?<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> With subscription, it\u2019s the same thing.\u00a0 It\u2019s, money comes into a pot and gets allocated proportionately to the artist and then however, whatever that artist share of money is, if it\u2019s a buck, the artist and producer split that in proportion of their points, so for example, 4\/16, where the producer is getting four points and the artist is getting 16 points, they would split that bucket of money in that proportion.\u00a0 That\u2019s the way it should work and that\u2019s the way the mechanism is there \u00a0to provide kind of a catch-all when you have a bucket of money that is kind of leftover.\u00a0 But that same thing with a sync license for film or television, $1000 comes in the door, the label splits that with the artist 50\/50, now you have $500 to the artist and the artist will split that with his producer in whatever that proportion is.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> I mean, there is this new iTunes initiative to have like some sort of all-you-can eat kind of. . .<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> Which would be advertising based, presumably.<\/p>\n

RB:<\/strong> Will that money find its way back to the artists and then find its way to the producer, via the contract?<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> Yeah, the way that would work is, in theory, that all the money goes into a big pot and would get allocated to the various artists based on their percentage of streams.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> I don\u2019t see how that is going to work.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> I don\u2019t either, but its an interesting question.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> If you\u2019ve got an iPhone, and you can access all the music you want on iTunes, and you are paying say $20 a month, like you would do for a TV or cable whatever, how does that money, I don\u2019t know how that money is ever going to get back to the artists and producers?\u00a0 Because it is just a lump sum, I mean, how are they going to allocate that to all the music you might have listened to?<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> Like I said, the theory behind it is that, they are going to be able to track that.\u00a0 They can track anything with modern electronics now, so, whatever Avril Lavigne\u2019s, her percentage of the overall streams she represents 20 percent of the overall streams, she gets 20 percent, or at least 20 percent goes to her label and then pursuant to her agreement, the label would pay her, and then the producer. . .<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> There\u2019s a million acts on iTunes, they are going to have to build a bigger computer.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong> I don\u2019t think they have a problem with the size of the computer.<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> But that\u2019s how Napster works now.\u00a0 I mean, all these subscription based services they are able to determine exactly how many plays Avril Lavigne has, as a percentage of the all streams and her label would be allocated that proportion.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> The one good news is that all of us love music.\u00a0 You guys, girls, are all making music.\u00a0 That is still going to be the key.\u00a0 People are going to want to listen and make music.\u00a0 And we just have got to figure out a way in this perfect storm that has happened in the last year or six months of figuring out a way to make a living making music.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Absolutely, hopefully that is what we are trying to do today, and actually the sort of $64,000 question probably for a lot of people in this room with respect to contract is how do you afford to pay for that contract to be done, because obviously I know Greenberg Trauwig\u2019s hourly rate is, and that\u2019s more than the budget that most people in this room are probably getting, Joe you told me at dinner that you\u2019ve done a project recently for $2,500, something in that range.<\/p>\n

JB:<\/strong> Yeah, that one I didn\u2019t even get a contract.\u00a0 I went on a handshake.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> So you just did a handshake deal.\u00a0 But now, how would you feel if that sold 15 million albums.<\/p>\n

JB:<\/strong> Well, it was an EP and I felt it would be something that might lead to the artist later selling records and I just did another one where I did a 12-inch vinyl for the band to get going on tour and they are going to make their album in May, so now I am going to get a contract with them for the album.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>So how do you afford to pay for a contract out of that because I mean, contracts can easily cost a couple thousand dollars.<\/p>\n

JB:<\/strong> Yeah, well you try to get them to issue it and you try to find a lawyer who realizes that you are not making much money and he gives you a good deal on it, you know?\u00a0 One thing that I have changed recently is I have often done production deals where I will find an artist I like and try and record a few songs and help get them placed at a label.\u00a0 I\u2019m working with a guy now who has a group called Pure Horse Hair and he is very good.\u00a0 And he said, \u201cWhile we are shopping this I put these five songs out as an EP?\u201d and I said, \u201cYeah, but whatever you sell at the gigs, you have to give me 25 percent of it.\u201d\u00a0 Now he is out there touring and playing and if he sells CD\u2019s he has to pay me a percentage, so it\u2019s not going be a lot of money but it\u2019s something.<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> A lot of times you can get the record company to pick up the producer costs as well.\u00a0 Often a lot of the independent labels will build that in as a part of the overall compensation, the majors you can finagle it out of the budget. . .<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> You get labels to pay for the producer\u2019s contract?<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong>Gimme your card!!<\/p>\n

RF: <\/strong>The more difficult ones obviously, if it is a rock act if you have one producer, you have one contract.\u00a0 If you have an R&B or hip-hop and sometimes there can be two agreements for each track.\u00a0 I had one album that was about you know, 18 different producer agreements, which is just horrible.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> And a one track producer agreement costs as much as a whole album.<\/p>\n

RF: <\/strong>Right, you are still negotiating the same.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>So Sandy, you have a sort of captive attorney right, that does all of your contracts, right?<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> Yeah, he does a bulk rate for me because I\u2019ve got 60 clients, so he basically just struck a deal with me that he charges so much for an album and so much for up to three tracks.\u00a0 And, he\u2019s been very good, he\u2019s never changed that price.\u00a0 But he gets a lot of work, I mean, all the producers use him.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>I\u2019ve never understood why we couldn\u2019t have a sort of form agreement for contracts, why couldn\u2019t producers have a basic form agreement where you fill in the names and the percentages, I mean, is that workable?<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> (to Rob) Because he wouldn\u2019t have a job.<\/p>\n

JB:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>That\u2019s the real answer.<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> The agreements are not overly sophisticated, I mean, they are all pretty much the same thing and you argue about the same five points but that\u2019s what is.\u00a0 You are arguing over these same five points, you\u2019re going back and forth and that time racks up.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Is there anything you can share with the people here [about] a resource that they could look at in terms of creating their own form agreements assuming that people don\u2019t have the budgets to pay for contracts through a proper lawyer?<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> I wouldn\u2019t recommend going, I have seen people that have pulled agreements off the Internet, and they are no good.\u00a0 But, you know, often I will also see clients who will use producer agreements that they have secured a lawyer with and taken those and altered them and used them for subsequent deals, and when I say they are not sophisticated, they are not sophisticated for people that do this stuff everyday.\u00a0 Producer agreements can be 30 pages long.\u00a0 There is a tremendous amount of information in there, if you know what you are looking for.\u00a0 You know, when I say there are these five points, the worst thing to do is to negotiate a deal with a non-entertainment attorney or even a music lawyer, because it will take you four times the amount of time because they do not understand the different areas, and what is important, what is customary and what is not.\u00a0 And that\u2019s just the worst.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>:\u00a0 What do you think the least you could do a contract for, a producer contract, a good attorney, at a reputable firm could do it for?\u00a0 (laughter)<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> I would say, from the market out there, (laughter) and like Sandy indicates, you can get obviously better rates if you are doing multiple contracts, although you are still doing the same work, you are given the better rate because you are giving volume business.\u00a0 I have heard of some lawyers charging $2500 flat, which I think is tough to do.\u00a0 I think I would lose money on any $2500 deal no matter who you are dealing with because the time to go back and forth and draft and even if it is plugging in everything, the percentage of just plugging stuff in and little negotiations, I mean there\u2019s a [significant] amount of time to work with a 30 page document.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> It makes you realize we should have all gone to law school right, instead of the music business.\u00a0 We picked the wrong business.\u00a0 Jimmy, you wanted to say something?<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> Yeah, I actually just did a deal with somebody in Australia and it was very low budg, so I decided, I have seen enough contracts in my life, they said they didn\u2019t want to spend on a lawyer, I said, \u201cYou know what?\u00a0 This is so low budg, we can do this amongst ourselves.\u201d\u00a0 And you know, in the end, I ended up having to go to a lawyer.\u00a0 Because they kept changing little teeny things and the only recourse I had was the email trail.\u00a0 Because they would change what we had said and it was like, I was doing this, honestly from my heart, like saying look, \u201cYou don\u2019t have a lot of money, you aren\u2019t paying me a lot,\u201d let\u2019s not do this, we can do this.\u00a0 And they just kept doing little things and at the end I was like, \u201cThis is really a pain, this is not right.\u201d\u00a0 And I ended up having to spend the money anyway.\u00a0 You know?\u00a0 And I ended up having to be the bad guy as well.\u00a0 Part of what you get with that paper is you get the bad guy.<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> I mean, I had to get the point where I just said, \u201cYou know what, you\u2019re actually doing this, you are making me feel so terrible, you know what, you can\u2019t have the record, I don\u2019t care, take the money back.\u201d\u00a0 And that\u2019s a terrible way to act, but that\u2019s how they made me feel.\u00a0 But, you know, he wouldn\u2019t do it that way. . .<\/p>\n

RF:<\/strong> It\u2019s important for the producer to stick with his creative, and just concentrate on the creative thing and that relationship and when you start getting that paper between the two of you, it\u2019s a mess.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> I believe that too, but I hate to see people like, people in this room going out there completely unprotected, as it were, you know, with no contract at all and sooner or later someone is going to have a big hit and they are not going to see no back end to it.\u00a0 So they are going to have made a record for maybe a couple of thousand dollars, game to them, maybe a $10,000 budget and it\u2019s going to end up generating millions of dollars, and they are not going to participate in that, and that really hurts to see that happen.\u00a0 I mean you told me a story about that Sandy once I think.<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> There are a lot of lawyers who just charge five percent.\u00a0 They don\u2019t take any money, they just charge a five percent fee.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Of the deal?<\/p>\n

SR: <\/strong> Of your earnings, yeah.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Right, off the back end or off of the front end?<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> There\u2019s no money in the front end, it\u2019s off the back end.<\/p>\n

RJB: <\/strong>So lawyers will do it for 5 percent of the back end?<\/p>\n

RB:<\/strong> There are lawyers that take, like an agent would do, or a manager, and get a percentage.\u00a0 There are lawyers that take a percentage, especially if you have a young act or something, that has, you know, no money.\u00a0 Sometimes they will do that, we don\u2019t typically do that.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Right, so like a business manager?<\/p>\n

SR:<\/strong> The secret then, if you do that sort of deal, is to always cap it at a certain figure.\u00a0 In fact, The Matrix had a lawyer who charged them 5 percent and I made them go back and redo the deal because he was making so much money for doing like, 3 or 4 contracts.\u00a0 So they then capped the money he could earn in a year.\u00a0 And it was still a decent amount of money for him, but that\u2019s one way of doing it.<\/p>\n

RJB:<\/strong> Well, at least the producer winds up protected which is the most important thing.\u00a0 So Jimmy, do you fly without contracts very often, or you never fly without contracts.<\/p>\n

JD:<\/strong> I\u2019ve done so many different things, but the question I do have is like:\u00a0 How far, do you think in general, a letter of intention takes you?\u00a0 Like if you\u2019re not going to go to a full-blown contract, you\u2019re just talking about a form, you\u2019re talking about a form, so to speak, right?<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Well, I mean just a binding agreement, basically. It could be a one-pager, but you know, you were saying these ones you get off the internet are not really worth the paper they\u2019re written on, I guess. Does that mean they wouldn\u2019t stand up if they\u2019re contested or you can\u2019t enforce them in whatever way?<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019m sure they could be enforced but a lot of times people are taking documents that they have no idea, you know, what a mechanical royalty and a controlled composition is, and they\u2019re plugging in blanks and they don\u2019t really know necessarily what they\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: But, like, a Letter of Intention without getting that deep. In other words, that would kind of sort of say \u2018Look, we agree that we\u2019re doing this and we\u2019re going to do a better thing about it once something happens.\u2019 Does that do anything?<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: Yeah, I mean, a lot of times you find that people have selective memory. And so a letter of intent would be good for those situations. But then there\u2019s obviously with agreements, I mentioned there\u2019s about five areas that are problematic. One of them is sampling, which you\u2019re [Jimmy] probably involved in a lot, and you really have to hash out, if there\u2019s a sample in something, how the producer has to contribute to either the money that it takes to clear the sample or any of the publishing issues that are involved in the sample, or even if you have a sample clearance from on the record side, the master side, whether he absorbs all that. So in that, you know, all of that stuff is very important to be detailed in any kind of document. But, I mean, I have seen quite a few producers do very short form producer agreements, but it\u2019s also important to have all the indemnity provisions as well because quite often, especially, you know, I\u2019m seeing it more and more where people are putting tracks out on spec and they\u2019re sending them out to different people and the next thing you know they\u2019re popping up with different voices on it and it\u2019s uh, it can be difficult. I actually was, uh, when I was at Sony I handled all the clearances for all the samples for Sony repertoire. So if anyone wanted to use a clip from an Epic artist or something they would, um, have to come through our group and I had within one month two different record companies sending me in for sample clearance the exact same song with a different artist on it.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: And, uh, that would have gone back to the producer.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Sandy, you had something to say.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019m finding in this climate that I\u2019m doing a lot of deals where the producer will spec tracks. So normally what I do there is I just exchange emails with the band\u2019s manager because, at that stage, it can go one of three ways, I think. You spec some tracks and you work out a deal with the band that, if they get a deal, they\u2019ll pay you so much a track, or if they get a deal and the label doesn\u2019t want to use you as the producer you can get a kill fee, just a variety of different things. And that way, the band or the label can\u2019t use the tracks, you\u2019ve got the drive, you\u2019ve got the masters, so they\u2019ve got to work out a deal if they want to use it. If they don\u2019t want to use it, they\u2019ve got an agreement with the band to pay a kill fee.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Right. And do you think, do they honor that because of the email exchange or\u2026?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: To be honest, I\u2019ve had no\u2026the most problem I have is getting paid by labels. I don\u2019t have any problem with bands, if you struck a deal. It\u2019s when you\u2019ve sold records, and you\u2019re trying to get the royalties, that\u2019s the biggest problem.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah. I think a lot of\u2026<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: [interrupting] It\u2019s like it was, you read about in the fifties and people saying, you know, you ask for royalties and they shoot you or something. You know? [laughter] It\u2019s really, that\u2019s the difficult thing: chasing down, if you\u2019ve had a big record, chasing down and then every time I\u2019ve done an audit, what you normally do is you can\u2019t afford or normally they don\u2019t give the rights to the producer to audit, they\u2019ll let you piggy back with the artist. So when I audited, uh, Hootie and the Blowfish, I audited Atlantic with them. They found a million dollars in mistakes.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah. \u201cMistakes\u201d right? Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: It was something to do with club sales. Same thing with, um.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Have you ever noticed how it\u2019s funny that the mistakes are always in their favor? They\u2019re never, they never pay the band a million dollars too much, do they?<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: And that\u2019s also the reason why, like Sandy was talking about, the Letter of Direction, which is effectively a letter from the band instructing the record company to pay the producer, and it\u2019s, the more simple that can be the better. And that\u2019s why when we were talking earlier a points deal, where if it\u2019s three points, four points, or whatever, the record company is set up to do that, and it works. Sometimes. It works most of the time. When you start deviating from that is when it gets really bad. So when we were talking about earlier doing profit splits and coming up with some sort of artificial royalty terms that you negotiate with the producer because the artist doesn\u2019t want to pay him a percentage of his profit, it gets very messy because the record company doesn\u2019t know how to handle that and inevitably it will get botched and you will have payment issues. So if you were doing a percentage, that\u2019s why I\u2019m an advocate of, you know, doing those percentage deals, you will likely get paid more often and better because you\u2019re effectively getting %25 of what they would otherwise pay the artist.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: See, America is the only country where the label doesn\u2019t hire the producer.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: They worked out very early on, \u2018let\u2019s distance ourselves from any problems. Let the act hire the producer and then they can tell us to pay them and if we don\u2019t want to, we won\u2019t.\u2019 Every other country in the world, you sign a contract with the label, they pay you. It\u2019s only in America where they\u2019ve done it, they sort of stand back a little bit and you have to do the deal with the band and then get the band to direct the label to pay you. They\u2019ve distanced themselves. I don\u2019t know whose idea that was in the beginning but it\u2019s very smart.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: I\u2019ll give you three guesses.<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: There are a bunch of smart, smart people up there in the music business.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: One of the things I\u2019m interested in is Sandy, Joe, and Jimmy, is you guys have had extremely sustained careers, I mean for a very long time through a lot of different changes and I\u2019m curious to what you attribute that, I mean apart from just talent, which is obviously there, but at the same time you\u2019ve had to adapt to a lot of different environments. I mean, I know Jimmy, you\u2019ve adapted to tons of different kinds of music, I mean it\u2019s been quite incredible. Do you have any insights into how you\u2019ve managed to sustain a career, because I think over the next ten or thirty years it\u2019s going to be at least as changeable as it has been over the past thirty, probably a lot more.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: If I\u2019m here over the next thirty years, somebody can just shoot me. [laughter] But no, to me the biggest change that I really saw was the changing over from analog to digital, that whole thing; that whole transition. And when I say \u2018digital\u2019 I don\u2019t just meant digital digital, I mean the ability to, well, computerized tools in the music work place. That was the biggest thing; that was the challenge to me. And I guess for me, the only thing that really kind of drives me is the, is always wanting the ability to try to be ahead of the next, you know. When they were changing over analog, there was a machine called Synclavier. It was a digital new, like one of the first: there was the Fairlight and there was the Synclavier. The Synclavier cost like $250,000, and I happened to be at Atlantic and they happened to own one, and it was sitting in the closet doing nothing. Literally, they could afford it and it was doing nothing. And I saw a couple of demos of it and I went berserk because it could do all these amazing things that nothing else on this planet could do at the time. And I spent about\u2026I worked for them and I asked them not to hire me on anything and I said \u2018You know what, let me just learn this machine.\u2019 And I started doing digital mastering for them at night so they wouldn\u2019t put me on any other gigs because I wanted to learn this machine, and I learned this machine, I taught myself, I felt very proud of myself. And I was, you know, on the forefront, I was in the leading forefront; I did a couple of albums with a group called The System and it was really, you know, it was very rewarding. And you know, they started, these kids started coming around that said they could do the same thing with this cheap little thing called ProTools, or whatever [laughter]. And I paid no heed because, you know, this is $250,000 what can this little machine do? But, you know, as time went on, that little machine got better and better, and this was too much and it was just, it just got kind of outdated, and I found myself with all the little kids.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: You know, and just trying to keep up with all the changing technology has been a very very interesting challenge to me. Like even now, I listen to a lot of the records and there\u2019s a lot of like, you know, all the effects and all that crazy stuff which has nothing to do with music but it\u2019s there and it\u2019s available and, you know, that\u2019s what they want. They want to hear effects, they don\u2019t want to hear just people play music anymore they want to hear all kinds of crazy, \u2018what can this machine do? Let me see what it can do!\u2019 you know? And it\u2019s really, it\u2019s a challenge but that\u2019s what you gotta do if you wanna stay in the game.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah, so you\u2019ve been excited by the changes, really. The technological changes, that\u2019s kept you excited.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: Yeah, I\u2019m excited [ironically].<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: [laughter] And Joe, you come from a tech background, so, I guess that\u2026<\/p>\n

JB<\/strong>: Yeah, well, one thing is you have to keep aware of the technological changes another thing is you always have to be listening, you know, when we\u2019re in the studio sometimes working 12 or 14 hours a day, you still have to find time to listen to the new records and find the things that you like, and listen to any good music that you\u2019ve always liked and just stay in touch with music, is one thing. Another thing is if you just always do a good job and you give people a hundred percent, somehow it comes back, you know, when a few years later a guy who was a bass player in one group you worked with is in another group and, you know, when word of mouth and reputation. You know, I\u2019ve been lucky because early on in my career in the \u201880\u2019s I worked with people from Japan and people from South America and it just branched out into more people from those places. And you know, I guess luck is also a factor, but I think just always doing good work and staying in touch with what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Could you elaborate on the international work a little bit? Because it\u2019s unusual that you do so much international work.<\/p>\n

JB<\/strong>: Yeah, well it wasn\u2019t by design or anything. You know, I started working with a guy from Argentina who came knocking on the door of Electric Lady Studios in like 1984 and wanted someone to mix his record and he turned out to be a very legendary artist down there, his name is Charlie Garc\u00eda. I made a few records with him and then in the \u201890\u2019s the MTv Latino started making unplugged records and I did his and then they liked the way it sounds so they hooked me up with a couple other bands and then all those bands when I met them they wanted me to do their next studio records and it\u2019s just, one thing led to another, and I\u2019ve done about nine projects for Warner Music in Spain. And, you know, some of them were successful so they called me back for other ones.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: That\u2019s great. And Sandy, you\u2019ve, firstly, you\u2019ve been in the business for a very very long time.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Well I\u2019m certainly the oldest person here. I mean, I was an act; I was signed to Fontana Deca EMI as an artist in the \u201860\u2019s in the UK and then, I just realized that I wasn\u2019t going to make it so I decided to go and get a job in the business and I very luckily got a job working for Chess Records. And I ran their publishing company and got their records distributed in the UK, and it was great. And then I left there to start my own label with one of the producers at Decker and we formed Blue Horizon Records which was a very successful blues label. The first act we signed was Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer, and then Seymour Stein and Richard Gott came over from New York and they bought into our label. And then I got the bug: I just wanted to produce records and I left and I did fifty five albums back to back. And only seven of those records was I actually hired to produce. All the others, I found the bands, I signed them to my production company, I made the record, and then went and shopped it. And it was only like the last two records where I never got a deal. But every time I just walked into\u2026with finished albums and got deals. And I know it\u2019s risky to do that but now it\u2019s less expensive to make records. You couldn\u2019t have\u2026I mean in those days, you couldn\u2019t afford to buy a multi-track machine and sound-proof a room and all that. So I would be taking a risk, but nowadays you can make records for very little money. But my passion has always been about making records. And that\u2019s, I just OD\u2019d on doing it so that\u2019s why I switched over and represented producers because I still love that whole passion about making records<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: Making records or music?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Music.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: Music, ok. Because we keep saying \u2018making records\u2019<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Well, you know.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: No, no, I, no it\u2019s very important\u2026<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: It dates me by saying records because\u2026there are no records anymore.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: No you mean making music, though.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Music, yeah.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: Yeah, ok.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: But it\u2019s the recording, it\u2019s the actual recording, the capturing of an event or a series of events or whatever and preserving it forever that\u2026<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: I used to know every player on every session I would, you know, I would memorize their stuff.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah, well you said something to me earlier about not wanting your producers to be working all the time.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: No, I think that is, I think what producers should do, and it\u2019s tough because obviously you\u2019ve got to make a living, but the secret I think is picking and choosing, obviously if you\u2019re starting off you\u2019ve got to try and get your name going, but once you\u2019ve got established a little bit you should try and pick the projects you do. And I know it\u2019s tough because everyone\u2019s got to make a living, but it\u2019s so much better to work with great projects and great acts than just be doing it just to make the rent or the mortgage or whatever you want.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: How do you keep your producers alive and I mean, do some of them have to do day jobs or other gigs in between?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Well I mean I\u2019ve got one guy who\u2019s in his fifties and he\u2019s struggled but now it\u2019s really come through for him because he insisted, and we worked together on this, he insisted that he did not want to work on cheesy projects. And, uh, he just did the Nick Cave record which has done really well, it\u2019s the highest charting record that he\u2019s ever had; he\u2019s in Texas now producing the Yeah yeah yeah\u2019s. He\u2019s, uh, Supergrass: he\u2019s just done their record. So he\u2019s really picking and choosing the projects he does, and the Yeah yeah yeah\u2019s came to him or wanted to work with him because of the record he had made with a Nick Cave side project: Grinderman. So I think it all snowballs.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Well that actually was my next question: do you think it continuing to work, is it about relationships? Is it about reputation? Is it a combination? How does that work, is it about relationships with A&R people, with bands, or how does that, where does most of the work come from, well, from your point of view and from the producer\u2019s point of view?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Through me, oh, it\u2019s changed. I have to go the extra mile now to get my producers work. I mean there was girl recently in Philadelphia who made her own record, and somehow she got it onto XM radio just herself, and it was played on The Loft and I was driving to work and I heard her, her name\u2019s Melody Gardot, and I listened and I thought \u2018she\u2019s amazing.\u2019 And I sort of basically got to the office and I started phoning around and Googling her. I found that she had made her own record and had it on her own little website. So I contacted her and said \u2018Listen I\u2019ve got this guy Larry Klein that would be a fantastic producer for you.\u2019 She says \u2018Well I don\u2019t have a label.\u2019 So I went and met her and she had a manager who was twenty one and he, you know, he didn\u2019t even know the address for Sony, so he would never have got a deal. So I said \u2018Look, if Larry can produce the next record, I\u2019ll get you a record deal.\u2019 And so she said \u2018Great, cool.\u2019 She didn\u2019t have a lawyer and she just had this young manager, so I went out there and I shopped it and I got her a deal with Universal in London and Verve are putting out that record now and Larry\u2019s in the studio this week started doing a record. So that\u2019s what I have to do now in the old days you would be basically getting phone calls with people trying to hire your producers but I have to go out and do that extra thing. And there\u2019s a girl who got signed, purely by making her own record, putting it on her website, and getting some guy on The Loft on XM to play it.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: This is kind of going back to the days of John Hammond where the producers went out there and A&R\u2019d and found acts and got them signed and so on and so forth.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Absolutely. It\u2019s what I said in the very beginning, I think producers should be finding the acts and working out a deal with the band and either putting it out through iTunes, EMusic, Amazon, whatever digital\u2026they want, and maybe working it a little bit themselves, and then maybe going. Because shopping deals now is just impossible with majors. They just want a story, they don\u2019t want a baby act that\u2019s sold nothing.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah, I mean they want it to be on the radio and have sold fifty thousand copies and, it\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: I\u2019ve got a guy now, who, I made a record with this guy, from Australia, and we made the record and it was sort of like, Jet meets Stacks. Had horns, it was a really cool record. And, nothing happened, so basically we just shelved the record and said let\u2019s wait, let\u2019s try and get you on the road. He drove down to San Diego himself and went on American Idol, and he\u2019s in the last ten now, so I\u2019m sitting on a finished record with this guy who\u2019s in the last ten on American Idol. So he did all that himself, he just bit the bullet, auditioned, got on there, got right through, and he\u2019s in the last ten. And he\u2019s the only one on that show right now who\u2019s got a finished record sitting on the shelf.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah, if he wins, you\u2019ll have to give it to BMG, right?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know, for me I hope he doesn\u2019t win because then we can put that record out, instead of Jay making a crappy record. [laughter]<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: He said he was going to be the Simon Cowell of the panel. So, Jimmy, how about you, I mean what do you, where do you think most of your work comes from? Relationships? Reputation? Combination?<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: It comes from a combination of any and everything, and when I was listening to Joe, actually, I remembered one thing: one of the key places my work used to come from back, was, you know, when you work the big studios a lot of acts come around. They see you in the seat, they see you making the big record, they want you. That\u2019s what that represents basically, but the era of the big studio has kind of come and gone. And a lot of us are making records in a vacuum, or at home in your own studio by yourself, and nobody\u2019s coming around anymore. So, you know, the hardest thing for me, especially, I\u2019m in Miami now a lot, and I work at a place called the Hit Factory where, like, you know, all the hip-hop people are, when I\u2019m there it\u2019s great, they all come through they see me, we do a slap hands, \u2018I\u2019m gonna work for you, I\u2019ll do your mixes.\u2019 But when I\u2019m not there, trying to keep in touch with the rest of the world to let them know that I even exist, even though I\u2019m making great records and my record do come out, you know, I\u2019m in the hit parade hopefully, but still, on a daily basis, like Sandy was saying, somebody\u2019s in somebody\u2019s office talking about somebody else\u2019s name and it\u2019s not mine. And even though they know and love and respect what I do it\u2019s just like I\u2019m not there, I\u2019m not in their mind at that moment, and this vacuum thing is really part of what is, uh, it\u2019s a good thing and it\u2019s a bad thing.<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: You also see producers more and more getting hired to very high level positions in record companies.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: So obviously the people that run in those circles tend to get some business out of that. Jay-Z and Germaine Dupree and those type of\u2026<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: LA<\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: But this is a cyclical thing, though, you know in my lifetime they go through phases where producers run labels and then it goes back to accountants and lawyers and then it flips over to producers again. I mean, unfortunately there aren\u2019t enough labels out there to employ more than about six producers at this point are there? Here\u2019s a question for you that I hope is meaningful to everybody here and that is: if you\u2019re just starting out from scratch today, eighteen years old or twenty two years old, whatever, how do you get started in producing? What do you do? I\u2019ll throw this open to anybody who wants to\u2026<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: Well, how do you get started in producing. You know, that question, I\u2019ve been asked many times actually and matter of fact some kid came and asked me this it was some ProTools exhibition, and he came to me and he said \u2018I\u2019ve learned how to work all the stuff, I can do this and that and the other,\u2019 he says, \u2018but, how do I learn how to produce?\u2019 And I thought, \u2018how do you learn how to produce?! No, either you produce or you don\u2019t.\u2019 It\u2019s not something you learn, either you have it or you don\u2019t have it. I don\u2019t think I\u2019m wrong there. From what I\u2019ve understood, from watching producers and being one, you either get it or you don\u2019t get it. So when you say \u2018how do you start out being a producer?\u2019 well, I would say \u2018well, if that\u2019s what you are, you believe that you have the ability and the talent to be that.\u2019 There\u2019s so many, to me, I\u2019m watching people get, I guess, seen that wouldn\u2019t have been seen in the past because of the internet, basically. There really is, I mean as silly as it sounds, there is the youtube thing. People are putting stuff up there and people are seeing stuff that, you would\u2019ve never known these people in the past. There\u2019s no way they would have gotten past anybody\u2019s gate, and now they\u2019re, you\u2019re getting a lot of that, between um, I guess just regular people in the street are being able to, there are channels that you can get out there. You don\u2019t have to depend on the big boy to bring you through and let the world see you.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Do you use the social networking outlets like MySpace and Facebook?<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: I actually have two or three writers that I\u2019ve found on MySpace, I mean I really do go through, you know, a lot of people hit me up and I just, I listen, audition what they do, and some of it\u2019s decent, you know and like and I\u2019ll listen to the writers, I\u2019ll check them out, see what they got, I\u2019ll send them some tracks, they\u2019ll send me some stuff back. You know, we can do that across the thing. I\u2019ve even had a couple people fly into my studio and we\u2019ve written some stuff. Um, it\u2019s there.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah. Joe, what do you think about how you get started.<\/p>\n

JB<\/strong>: Well, I think to do this to begin with, you have to be passionate about music and you have to have some kind of skill, and I don\u2019t it\u2019s necessarily a technical thing or something, but just a good, good taste and a good ear. You know, and a good objective view point when you\u2019re working with an artist to help them. You know, to me a producer\u2019s job is really to bring out the best in an artist and hopefully that coincides with making a successful product. But, I think when you\u2019re starting out you just got to find somebody who will let you work with them, and you have to believe in their talent and do the best you can, and if you can make something really good, you know like Jimmy said there are these channels on the internet and things, something that\u2019s good will get noticed, you know, so.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Well there\u2019s a second part to this question then. If, say you\u2019re a pretty successful local or regional producer, how do you make the jump to hyperspace, as it were, or how do you jump up to the level of having hits? Any thoughts on that?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong> I think you, I really do think you need to get somebody to work for you. Because, when I was a producer I never had any manager until the very end. And I got a lawyer in New York called Marty Meshat who\u2019s dead now and he said \u2018Listen, I\u2019m never going to find you work, but once you\u2019ve found something I\u2019ll do a good deal for you.\u2019 And he would charge me fifteen percent for doing my contract. But, he would ask for money that I would be embarrassed to ask for, and he got it. He would never read the contracts, he always said, \u2018Listen, forget about the contract. If the record\u2019s a hit, I\u2019ll go in and renegotiate.\u2019 And that was his [laughing] his standard approach! But I think that labels are always looking for somebody new, I mean, they really are. I mean, people come out of the blue. Where did Mark Ronson come from? He came out of the blue!<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Tim Palmer, who I represent, he sent me, he was a tape-up at Utopia Studios, and he used to sneak back in at night after they had locked the studio and take bands in there and cut B sides and things, free. And he sent me, he worked with a band called\u2026dreadful band called Kajagoogoo, you probably don\u2019t even remember them. He did a B side with them and he sent it to me and it was just amazing, the sound was fantastic. And I took him on when he was a tape-up, because he just sounded fantastic. And not long after that, I got a call from Phil Carson who was working at Atlantic records and he said Robert Plant wants somebody new to work with him. He doesn\u2019t want any name. And I thought, \u2018I\u2019ll put Tim up for this.\u2019 So I put Tim up. Tim had never miked a drum kit before he had always worked on drum machines, and he got the gig! Robert said \u2018I like you, come and\u2026\u2019 So he, I think Richie Hayward was the drummer, it was the first time he had miked a drum kit, he phoned me up and said \u2018what do I do?\u2019 Well, you can either put two overheads and [laughs] one on the kick. Or you can just double mike everything! And if you listen to the drum sound on that, it\u2019s great. That\u2019s Shaken and Stirred, that, Robert Plant.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah, no, I remember.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: So I think it\u2019s\u2026you know, if you\u2019re going to try and break into, as you said \u2018go into hyperspace\u2019, you\u2019ve got to probably get someone to help you get there whether it\u2019s a lawyer or a manager or someone like that. But, it you\u2019ve got a great tape, and you get it to the right people, you\u2019ll get, people are going to listen.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: So you recommend mailing\u2026[part lost]<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong> \u2026boxes in the corner and they\u2019re so depressing. Because people\u2019s whole hopes are sitting in there and some intern\u2019s going to come in there and listen to it and maybe, and, that\u2019s not the way to do it. You have to get somebody to work with you to get it, to get people to play it.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah, but I mean, market yourself to managers and lawyers?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Yeah, I think so, yeah.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: So reach out to managers who manage\u2026<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Yeah, or lawyers. Some lawyers don\u2019t like to shop, but some do.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Jimmy?<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: I wanted to say one thing, this is called \u2018MySpace savvy.\u2019 Just for those of you that really do it, cut the intros off, please? And I mean that in all sincerity \u2018cause when I go on it to hear stuff I need to, it\u2019s like if you multiply the amount of people in this room and if every one of you had four songs up there, and I have to sit through fifteen seconds of an intro on four songs, that\u2019s a minute times however many people there are here. I would like to hear what you have to offer, but I\u2019d like to get to the point. Um, I\u2019m not trying to be arrogant about it, but sometimes I really do, I get excited by what I see and I\u2019m like, \u2018let me see what this sounds like.\u2019 And then I hear \u2018ku ku kgoon\u2026kgoon.\u2019 And I\u2019m like, \u2018ok\u2026so\u2026it\u2019s gonna sound like what?\u2019 And it\u2019s just one of the things that I just, it\u2019s just a piece of advice I give people because it helps people that might spend the time to listen to you. \u2018Cause if I do two of those, and I realize it\u2019s a lot of intros, then I won\u2019t listen to the third and fourth song.
\nRF<\/strong>: And, to follow up on that, I mean, it needs to be your best stuff too. I hear so much \u2018Well, it\u2019s a work in progress.\u2019 Or, \u2018It\u2019s not my best.\u2019 Well it has to be your best stuff. I mean, that is out to the world and there have been, you know some people that have got some success, and, you know, you don\u2019t want him [Jimmy] hearing just your mediocre stuff, it needs to be the best.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah, I mean you don\u2019t get a second chance to make a first impression. I want to throw it open to questions now. I\u2019m not sure if we have any questions, but if we do, does anybody have any questions? Would you possibly, Tom, do you want to stand on the mike, \u2018cause we\u2019re trying to record everything and capture everything, questions as well.<\/p>\n

Tom<\/strong>: Hi, my name\u2019s Tom, I\u2019m an artist manager. I\u2019ve had good success with major labels, but with the whole trend towards self releasing, from my clients I see both sides of that. And, I\u2019m curious to hear what any of you have to say about that; Sandy in particular in the case of Melody Gardot, who I\u2019ve been hearing a lot about lately, what made it a better decision for her to go with a major label than to stick with her independent record, which was already being played on XM, caught your attention, why was it not better for her to self release?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Well, it\u2019s down to funding. I mean, Universal in London have flown her to London two or three times, she\u2019s already been on TV there, they\u2019ve got whole press behind her, she couldn\u2019t afford to do that. She just had her own website with a record up there, and she sent it to somebody at The Loft and got it played, and I happened to be just listening at that time.<\/p>\n

Tom<\/strong>: Doesn\u2019t that speak to the whole issue of \u2018well, gee, you make more money per disc when you put it out yourself, so why don\u2019t you put it out yourself?\u2019 I think so many artists are being told that and they don\u2019t understand, but then they\u2019ll have to fund the marketing of their own recording themselves, and they don\u2019t realize the whole business behind it. All they\u2019re thinking is \u2018gee, I\u2019m gonna make more per disc\u2019 and they\u2019re not thinking about the business that goes into releasing a record.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Any other questions?<\/p>\n

Ward Kirkendal<\/strong>: Hi, my name is Ward Kirkendal and I\u2019m a student at Omega Studio Schools of Applied Recording Arts and Sciences, and a good question for me is, I\u2019m trying to figure out how to get into the business after I\u2019m done with school and everything. How many of you all take on interns and entry-level positions? How common is that in the business today?<\/p>\n

JB<\/strong>: Well, I own a recording studio so occasionally we get somebody to come in and in the beginning it\u2019s things like answering phones or assisting certain sessions or the engineer\u2019s pretty confident to do it himself and he just sort of, you know, watch and learn, and it can be boring a lot of times but you\u2019re, you know, there are places you can do it. It generally doesn\u2019t pay well until you work your way up to being an assistant engineer or something like that, you know.<\/p>\n

Ward<\/strong>: Maybe just one more, if any of you guys can remember, how did you make your first dollar? Since we\u2019re talking about money.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: My first dollar in the records or my first dollar?<\/p>\n

Ward<\/strong>: Yeah, as far as producers or engineers.<\/p>\n

JB<\/strong>: Well I was fortunate I worked in the studio in New York, Electric Lady Studios and I was their technician and I fixed the equipment, I worked the night shift and things. And I got friendly with a lot of the bands that worked there and one of them was The Clash and they came through town on a tour and they had a song that they didn\u2019t finish, and they said \u2018hey if we bring the tapes over here after our gig, can we finish this with you?\u2019 And I said sure, you know, but I had never touched a fader or done anything like that, you know, I had the knowledge of that all because I was a fan of music and I had to keep the studio working and everything. But so I just fell into it and I was very lucky, but, you know, some guys are assistant engineers for a long time and they never get a break, and then some guys are there for two weeks and somebody doesn\u2019t show up sick and they get to touch the faders and then they have a career, you know, so it\u2019s, there\u2019s a lottery element to it, you know.<\/p>\n

Ward<\/strong>: Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Any other questions?<\/p>\n

Stan Green<\/strong>: Hi, my name is Stan Green. I\u2019m a songwriter\/engineer. My question is directed towards Jimmy Douglas: you being a producer, engineer, and songwriter, how many times while you were tracking a song or mixing a song have you been involved in the songwriting\/producing aspect and not received any credit for it? And how often does that happen and is that expected while you\u2019re an engineer?<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong> Um, it happens a lot. It happens a lot, I mean, it happened a lot back in the day because I didn\u2019t realize my contribution as a producer\u2026 many times, like a lot of the funk groups I used to do, I\u2019d help them kind of write, but there\u2019d be so many people writing that I would think \u2018well you\u2019re the producer, this is your contribution to make the song better by contributing a word or two here.\u2019 And you know, there are so many people I would be like \u2018yeah, don\u2019t\u2026\u2019 you know I felt kinda\u2026 And then sometimes I\u2019d hear people talk about the song and they\u2019d mention the<\/em> line that I put in, they go \u2018I love this line,\u2019 and I\u2019m like \u2018shit that was my line.\u2019 But, you know, that\u2019s the way that it goes sometimes. More recently, I mean on one of the things that I do, a lot of the people I work with now, the reason they love me is because I am producer and I\u2019m a really good vocal coach, and I do all that stuff from back in the day, and I am also a contributor. And there\u2019s one artist I\u2019m not gonna mention because the camera\u2019s rolling, but there was one song that we kinda wrote together but he\u2019s a little more clever than that; the way he wrote it was, he kinda asked me questions about the way to say things, and then he\u2019d re-word it. So we would talk about the song, we were actually writing the song, and he would talk about the thing and say \u2018well how would you feel if this\u2026\u2019 and I\u2019d say \u2018well, you know, he\u2019s gonna feel this way, and the character\u2019s gonna\u2026\u2019 and we\u2019d talk about, like, writing the song and he\u2019d go \u2018you mean, kinda like, dadada\u2026\u2019 and I\u2019d be like \u2018ok but that\u2019s not you\u2019re words,\u2019 but we kinda just, you know. So yeah, it happens, you know. But the record was very successful so at the end of the day, sometimes you give, sometimes you take, sometimes, you know. If you\u2019ve got talent, you\u2019ll get what you\u2019re supposed to get.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: That\u2019s a good question because it comes up all the time, because it must be like talking about a prenup, you know? [laughter] How do you get around to it? It\u2019s so difficult because if you talk about song splits with a band before you start working with them,<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: Oh god.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: it\u2019s just, it\u2019s a vibe killer right away.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: Kills it. Totally.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: But, after the fact, it\u2019s always very difficult to go back. So that\u2019s a good question because that comes up still now, every month there\u2019s a producer who\u2019s saying \u2018listen I wrote some of that song.\u2019 It\u2019s so difficult. It\u2019s a really difficult thing because there\u2019s no real hard set way to deal with that. Maybe just go out for a drink before hand, wait for the right moment.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: It\u2019s particularly difficult because I think sometimes the artist thinks the producer is trying to get a piece of the publishing.<\/p>\n

JB<\/strong>: It\u2019s a grey area, though, because if you\u2019re working on a record, you\u2019re the producer and ultimately you\u2019re in charge, and if the artist, you know, like has a song and one of the verses or something has some corny lyric or something and you say \u2018well, why don\u2019t you change it?\u2019 \u2018Well I can\u2019t think of anything,\u2019 and then you think of something and you give it to him or something then\u2026 but, no, but a lot of times you have to let it go, but if it\u2019s a thing like \u2018oh, this song needs a bridge,\u2019 and then they can\u2019t come up with it and you write it and they like it, then obviously you\u2019re a co-writer. So it\u2019s kind of a grey area, you know, but you also have to step in and help because you have to make a good record.<\/p>\n

Stan Green<\/strong>: Thank you.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Did you have a question?<\/p>\n

Unnamed<\/strong>: I\u2019m probably working on my third independent project in the past fifteen years. Question I have to the Academy is about how do we, or what is the Academy doing to stop the illegal downloads?<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: I can\u2019t speak on behalf of the Academy, actually, I don\u2019t know if anybody else here does, but I, uh, I think, you know, it\u2019s really an educational process more than anything because the Academy\u2019s not an organization that can really stop illegal downloads but I think that, certainly for my part, you know, I try to put out as much information to people to say \u2018you know what, you\u2019re hurting the very thing that you love. If you download music for free, you\u2019re hurting the business in general, you\u2019re hurting artists who make their living, if artists can\u2019t make their living from music, then you\u2019re not gonna wind up with as much good music out there.\u2019 And maybe that\u2019s not true, you know, I mean there\u2019s also the argument that people that download a lot of stuff also buy a lot of stuff, so, I don\u2019t know. Do you guys have an opinion about that? About illegal downloads?<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: I think it\u2019s offering the consumer better alternatives. I think iTunes has done a tremendous job of that by giving them very simple way to download things. You know, the CD was actually a great period of time, the invention of the CD, because all the labels would reissue their catalog, there was a tremendous spike, and I think you can have that for the digital age as well if they do it right. Because everyone, even though you have the record down somewhere in your basement or the CD down in your basement, you know, we\u2019re a society of instantaneous gratification and we will go and we will hit that button on iTunes and download the thing for ten dollars. And, uh, I\u2019m seeing that more and more. So I think it\u2019s important to give the consumer a very efficient way of getting the music.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Yeah, I will tell you this, I mean I see so many people out there with digital players and to me this indicates that there\u2019s a massive proliferation in the use of music, and yet for whatever reason the industry\u2019s declining each year in terms of revenue. So I think that it\u2019s really everybody\u2019s responsibility to kind of front up and say, you know \u2018I enjoy this, I should pay for it.\u2019 That\u2019s how I feel about it, but on the other hand, I mean, if you could get gas free at the next gas station people would do that too. So it\u2019s very hard as long as it\u2019s free I think people are gonna take it. Any other questions?<\/p>\n

Elyse Perry<\/strong>: Good evening, my name is Elyse Perry I\u2019m a producer. You all spoke of a number of projects that are getting completed this year, how they\u2019ve dipped, and I think that the industry looks at some of us producers that aren\u2019t those twenty producers that are doing the six figure projects as on a different level. So we get a smaller amount of money. So my question to you all is: how do we potentially broker a deal with people who just have no money? Everybody wants to pay the studio, no one wants to pay the producer. They want us to go independent in with them and then they go out and they burn their CD\u2019s and we have no way of auditing, you know, their independent releases. We do five songs, two songs, ten songs, they go out, they do a concert, they sell a hundred CD\u2019s, everybody loves it, but we don\u2019t ever get a cut. So we get our money up front as much as we can, and still don\u2019t really get what we deserve. I mean, we want to broker a deal fairly, but it\u2019s never fair enough. So my question to you is, and I was hoping I was gonna get something like this was, another production business model for low-balling. I mean, there\u2019s so many things that people are doing out here, I call it \u2018street brokering,\u2019 where they rent<\/em> beats. They rent<\/em> beats it\u2019s: they get out here and they do a beat for somebody and \u2018you got this beat for six months and then it goes back out here for, if, Jay-Z wants his beat, you can\u2019t have the beat anymore. If I do this beat for you for six months and you get picked up, then we renegotiate.\u2019 You know, so there are all kinds of little street that we\u2019re doing and some of them hold up and some of them don\u2019t. I was just thinking maybe you all had an idea for some form of a production business model for the ground level until you become on Timberland\u2019s level, or something.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: That\u2019s called, uh, that sounded like that was called licensing to me, what you just described. Whether it\u2019s in the street or whether it\u2019s in the big offices, it\u2019s the same process basically. The real fact, and I look at this many times from my positions, the \u201cbig money\u201d, the Timberland\u2019s and all those people, there is a handful of people making most of the records that you hear on the radio. Yes, there\u2019s a handful, that they\u2019re all feeding the same Ferrell, Timberland, and dadadada, and they\u2019re sending all the money. But at the same time there\u2019s also a crop of people like yourself that are coming up, that can\u2019t really be regulated yet because you\u2019re not really on the radar. But if you want to be on the radar and you want to have everything set straight up, they\u2019re not gonna do it with you, they\u2019re gonna do it with them. The thing is, your investment and your risk, that is what you\u2019re investing in: yourself. And you\u2019re investing in your future. And the fact that work that you\u2019re putting into it right now, which you may not be being paid for, you will be being paid for at some point. One of the things that I do, remember when I was talking about that Australian deal, one of the things that I kept saying to this person, I said \u2018you know, you\u2019re getting crazy over this little little stuff. Either we make money, and we both make money, or neither of us really make any money and this really isn\u2019t worth this shit anyway.\u2019 And that\u2019s what I kept saying over and over again and they weren\u2019t understanding; I was saying \u2018look, if we end up selling this many records, we\u2019re both gonna make money, so stop it.\u2019 And, you know, it\u2019s kind of the same thing, you know: so, they\u2019re selling a hundred CD\u2019s here and there, so what are you gonna make of that? Probably, what, I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re gonna make. Whatever that is, you may be entitled, but look at the bigger picture, you know, look at some of the, think about somebody getting some sort of documentation that you\u2019re supposed to follow this trail that, suddenly should blow up and really make some serious money, now we really want to talk about it. Now we want to talk.<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: One thing that I\u2019ve also seen more recently is, before, uh, ten years ago or so, record companies wanted to, they would listen to a demo and then they would go in and get one of these guys to re-do that track. For some liability reasons, they wanted to be able to control the sound, they wanted to be able to do it. I\u2019m seeing more and more that labels will be interested in putting out the track that they receive. They\u2019ll be putting out those demos. I\u2019m doing a deal right now where it\u2019s kind of this, we were talking about this earlier, a flow-rider situation which was just this one track that was serviced through iTunes, and it just blew up. Same type of situation where a major is going to do a singles deal, put it out, and it\u2019s the same track the got, same producer such as yourself who hopefully will, if this track blows up, will be able to produce the album or at least, will be on that single, will have that credit to their name. And then, you know, and that\u2019s the baby steps. So, you know, that\u2019s a good thing in kinda where we\u2019re going now, recently.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Thank you. Next question.<\/p>\n

Bo Samps<\/strong>: My name is Bo Samps and you guys are doing a great job. I would like to know from you guys; can you guys elaborate on how long it takes an artist to come out? Because a lot of people don\u2019t really realize just \u2018cause you sign a record deal doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re coming out the next day, and I just wanted you guys to kind of elaborate on that, and then, I also would like to make a comment that, you know, from the way radio does things now, things have changed and that has really affected you, producers, the artists and everything. The way you expose music is the only way, you know, that you guys are gonna be heard. So you\u2019ve got stuff that you\u2019ve produced that people haven\u2019t even heard, and I think that\u2019s important for people to know.<\/p>\n

JB<\/strong>: Well, we\u2019ve all produced records that nobody\u2019s heard, unfortunately [laughter]. But, you know, on a grass roots level, you gotta try and get it out there any way you can, you know, with the Myspace, the internet, through the band\u2019s website, whatever, the artist\u2019s website. You know, when you get signed to a major label your record might not come out for as long as a year.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Sometimes it never comes out.<\/p>\n

JB<\/strong>: Sometimes it never comes out, sometimes they release one single and if they pay their radio promo person and it doesn\u2019t get air play, you know, three months after the record\u2019s out, the artist can\u2019t get through to anyone from the record label on the phone, you know. So it can be over that quick, you know. But, uh, I think the best thing these days is to, one is to make something that\u2019s really, you know, good quality with the artist and the production, and two is to get as much momentum going with it as you can, before you go to a major label. You know, as much exposure, as many people coming to the artist\u2019s shows or whatever.<\/p>\n

Jerry Olson<\/strong>: Hi, thanks for coming out. My name is Jerry Olson I run a discount CD replication company called Music Boot Camp.com. I\u2019m curious what you guys think of the big tidal wave that Trent Reznor made with his last album, the, I think it\u2019s called \u2018Ghosts.\u2019 And, he made about a million dollars in his first week. I know he\u2019s had, you know, obviously enormous prior exposure, but there\u2019s a lot of controversy about, you know, people daring the majors to try this kind of a business model and there\u2019s a lot of fear on the side of the majors, of course, to sort of stop monitoring the income of the CD and go with this sort of global approach, you know, saturating the market and then pay, you know, pay what you feel comfortable with. But there\u2019s a big demand for that kind of thing. And lastly, I think a lot of people feel that\u2019s a fair deal because they get to listen to the product and evaluate how much it\u2019s worth and then actually purchase it. I know it\u2019s a really controversial business model, but I wondered what, with your experience with the major labels, how do you feel about that particular success? Do you think that there is any future in that sort of approach?<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Well one of my clients actually made that record, Atticus Ross. And that record, it\u2019s available through Trent\u2019s website, but it\u2019s going to be available physically in the UK and in America, so he\u2019s put it out in a number of different formats. But I think he was just fed up with being with Interscope, and he just wanted to do it himself, and he just lucked out because, you know, the record has done really well.<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think that there will ever be a time where we\u2019re at a \u2018pay what you want for a record\u2019 and that\u2019ll be a successful business model.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: But I think it\u2019s five bucks a record. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s pay\u2026<\/p>\n

Jerry Olson<\/strong>: It varied. There was a plateau of like 128 bit where you get your basic quality, iTunes basic quality, for free if you want. And then ten dollars if you want to pre-order the CD, and then they had twenty five hundred units that were like hundreds of dollars. And they sold out of those in the first week.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: Well I don\u2019t think he anticipated the interest in this because he, I think the website crashed the first night on that Sunday night that it came out.<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: I think there\u2019s a lot of discussion in technology companies that are working on dynamic pricing models, which I think are possibly more relevant, where it\u2019s just a demand, a dynamic demand system where in real time, you know, as twenty five people are typing in that they\u2019re looking at this particular record, the prices are gonna go up and down. I guess similar to airline tickets and that type of thing. I see that as being a possibility.<\/p>\n

SR<\/strong>: I think the biggest problem we had on that record was working out the mechanical because I got a share of the mechanicals from my client, and I think there\u2019s thirty one tracks on that album. So it was very difficult working out the mechanicals.<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: The thing I like about that model, I mean there\u2019s a couple things I like about it, but the one thing I really do like is it forces the level of the product to be better. Because if you can hear it before you\u2019re gonna buy it, that means that you can\u2019t just put crap on a record and expect people to buy it. So it\u2019s forcing us as creators to create a better product. That\u2019s what I like about it.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: I\u2019m gonna have to take the last question now and then we\u2019re gonna wrap up.<\/p>\n

Jamal<\/strong>: How you doing, my name is Jamal [?], I\u2019m an artist and producer. I heard you talking about clearing samples, and usually when I\u2019m making a song about samples I produce for myself, so my philosophy is pretty much: I\u2019m charging that to the game because they\u2019re probably gonna take everything from sampling but that\u2019s because I don\u2019t understand the process of clearing the samples so I was wondering if you could elaborate more on that, the steps that need to be taken to clear a sample for myself.<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: I mean, typically what will happen is they will put in either just the publishing or its interpolation and they don\u2019t use the actual master, or they\u2019ll actually use the master in the track itself. Now, obviously if, there are clearance houses that this is all they do and they will go and they will clear the publishing and there will be an advance that is required, there will be a, presumably, a royalty that is required, and that number\u2019s gonna change depending on what type of deal. If it\u2019s a big deal and you are doing this for a major label, obviously the deal\u2019s gonna be different, but yeah, in the even that you do utilize other people\u2019s music, you should license that from them, and it\u2019s just, you know, a standard sample license that you\u2019d have to go to the publisher for.<\/p>\n

Jamal<\/strong>: Would that be something that you should think about doing before you take the sample?<\/p>\n

JD<\/strong>: If I can say, \u2018cause I\u2019ve had it both ways I\u2019ve had my stuff sampled, if you\u2019re really clever enough to do it now, before the record is anything, most of the time they\u2019ll probably give you, they\u2019ll let you probably have it. If you\u2019ve got something going on, the price just went up. I mean, it\u2019s all relative to what it is and so forth. So, like you know, I figure a guy like yourself, I don\u2019t know the level of your artist but if you get a sample clear what I\u2019m doing, I\u2019d ask \u2018well let me hear what you\u2019ve got,\u2019 and if you could send me the original too, save me the time of having to go dig it up, but, you know, you give me those two parts and I\u2019ll sit and I\u2019ll listen and I\u2019ll decide how relevant is this to your song, you know. Could your song actually have been done without this? You know, and that kind of thing. And then once again it\u2019s really like \u2018who is this? Oh, you were doing Jay-Z? It\u2019s gonna cost you, dude.\u2019 You know?<\/p>\n

RF<\/strong>: And he\u2019s right, you know, if you do it now before you really have anything on the radar, it\u2019s gonna be less, however if you\u2019re dealing with a major, they\u2019re probably gonna charge some sort of minimum because there\u2019s just administrative costs in doing a deal, but, you know, sometimes you can get contingency type licenses that it\u2019ll be free for demos and if it gets commercially released it kicks in with what kind of royalty or what kind of payment that you have to do.<\/p>\n

RJB<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019d like to thank everybody for coming and I think we\u2019re out of time. Particularly, I\u2019d like to thank Sandy Roberton, Joe Blaney, Jimmy Douglass, and Robert Finan for traveling all the way to DC and sharing a lifetime of knowledge thank you so much [applause]. I\u2019d also like to thank the producer\/engineer wing of the Recording Academy and Smithsonian Folkways recordings for sponsoring the event and thank you again to everyone for coming and for all the good questions and I hope this has been a helpful discussion.<\/p>\n

Shannon Emamali<\/strong>: Yeah, I just want to give another thanks for everyone for coming out and for Richard for moderating and I really encourage all of you guys to continue to visit our website: www.grammy.com\/washingtondc<\/a>, it has all of the listings of events like this. Our next big major event is our Grammy salute to gospel music, it\u2019s gonna be, it\u2019s back here again this year for all of you guys who attended last year, you know what a treat it is to have this event back here in Washington DC. It\u2019s gonna be on June 18th<\/sup>, at the Lincoln Theatre, and stay tuned to our website \u2018cause we\u2019ll be announcing our honorees and tribute performers relatively soon. So thank you guys again for coming out.<\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/strong><\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Like if you\u2019re not going to go to a full-blown contract, you\u2019re just talking about a form, you\u2019re talking about a form, so to speak, right?<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Well, I mean just a binding agreement, basically. It could be a one-pager, but you know, you were saying these ones you get off the internet are not really worth the paper they\u2019re written on, I guess. Does that mean they wouldn\u2019t stand up if they\u2019re contested or you can\u2019t enforce them in whatever way?<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019m sure they could be enforced but a lot of times people are taking documents that they have no idea, you know, what a mechanical royalty and a controlled composition is, and they\u2019re plugging in blanks and they don\u2019t really know necessarily what they\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: But, like, a Letter of Intention without getting that deep. In other words, that would kind of sort of say \u2018Look, we agree that we\u2019re doing this and we\u2019re going to do a better thing about it once something happens.\u2019 Does that do anything?<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: Yeah, I mean, a lot of times you find that people have selective memory. And so a letter of intent would be good for those situations. But then there\u2019s obviously with agreements, I mentioned there\u2019s about five areas that are problematic. One of them is sampling, which you\u2019re [Jimmy] probably involved in a lot, and you really have to hash out, if there\u2019s a sample in something, how the producer has to contribute to either the money that it takes to clear the sample or any of the publishing issues that are involved in the sample, or even if you have a sample clearance from on the record side, the master side, whether he absorbs all that. So in that, you know, all of that stuff is very important to be detailed in any kind of document. But, I mean, I have seen quite a few producers do very short form producer agreements, but it\u2019s also important to have all the indemnity provisions as well because quite often, especially, you know, I\u2019m seeing it more and more where people are putting tracks out on spec and they\u2019re sending them out to different people and the next thing you know they\u2019re popping up with different voices on it and it\u2019s uh, it can be difficult. I actually was, uh, when I was at Sony I handled all the clearances for all the samples for Sony repertoire. So if anyone wanted to use a clip from an Epic artist or something they would, um, have to come through our group and I had within one month two different record companies sending me in for sample clearance the exact same song with a different artist on it.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: And, uh, that would have gone back to the producer.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Sandy, you had something to say.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019m finding in this climate that I\u2019m doing a lot of deals where the producer will spec tracks. So normally what I do there is I just exchange emails with the band\u2019s manager because, at that stage, it can go one of three ways, I think. You spec some tracks and you work out a deal with the band that, if they get a deal, they\u2019ll pay you so much a track, or if they get a deal and the label doesn\u2019t want to use you as the producer you can get a kill fee, just a variety of different things. And that way, the band or the label can\u2019t use the tracks, you\u2019ve got the drive, you\u2019ve got the masters, so they\u2019ve got to work out a deal if they want to use it. If they don\u2019t want to use it, they\u2019ve got an agreement with the band to pay a kill fee.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Right. And do you think, do they honor that because of the email exchange or\u2026?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: To be honest, I\u2019ve had no\u2026the most problem I have is getting paid by labels. I don\u2019t have any problem with bands, if you struck a deal. It\u2019s when you\u2019ve sold records, and you\u2019re trying to get the royalties, that\u2019s the biggest problem.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah. I think a lot of\u2026<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: [interrupting] It\u2019s like it was, you read about in the fifties and people saying, you know, you ask for royalties and they shoot you or something. You know? [laughter] It\u2019s really, that\u2019s the difficult thing: chasing down, if you\u2019ve had a big record, chasing down and then every time I\u2019ve done an audit, what you normally do is you can\u2019t afford or normally they don\u2019t give the rights to the producer to audit, they\u2019ll let you piggy back with the artist. So when I audited, uh, Hootie and the Blowfish, I audited Atlantic with them. They found a million dollars in mistakes.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah. \u201cMistakes\u201d right? Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: It was something to do with club sales. Same thing with, um.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Have you ever noticed how it\u2019s funny that the mistakes are always in their favor? They\u2019re never, they never pay the band a million dollars too much, do they?<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: And that\u2019s also the reason why, like Sandy was talking about, the Letter of Direction, which is effectively a letter from the band instructing the record company to pay the producer, and it\u2019s, the more simple that can be the better. And that\u2019s why when we were talking earlier a points deal, where if it\u2019s three points, four points, or whatever, the record company is set up to do that, and it works. Sometimes. It works most of the time. When you start deviating from that is when it gets really bad. So when we were talking about earlier doing profit splits and coming up with some sort of artificial royalty terms that you negotiate with the producer because the artist doesn\u2019t want to pay him a percentage of his profit, it gets very messy because the record company doesn\u2019t know how to handle that and inevitably it will get botched and you will have payment issues. So if you were doing a percentage, that\u2019s why I\u2019m an advocate of, you know, doing those percentage deals, you will likely get paid more often and better because you\u2019re effectively getting %25 of what they would otherwise pay the artist.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: See, America is the only country where the label doesn\u2019t hire the producer.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: They worked out very early on, \u2018let\u2019s distance ourselves from any problems. Let the act hire the producer and then they can tell us to pay them and if we don\u2019t want to, we won\u2019t.\u2019 Every other country in the world, you sign a contract with the label, they pay you. It\u2019s only in America where they\u2019ve done it, they sort of stand back a little bit and you have to do the deal with the band and then get the band to direct the label to pay you. They\u2019ve distanced themselves. I don\u2019t know whose idea that was in the beginning but it\u2019s very smart.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: I\u2019ll give you three guesses.<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: There are a bunch of smart, smart people up there in the music business.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: One of the things I\u2019m interested in is Sandy, Joe, and Jimmy, is you guys have had extremely sustained careers, I mean for a very long time through a lot of different changes and I\u2019m curious to what you attribute that, I mean apart from just talent, which is obviously there, but at the same time you\u2019ve had to adapt to a lot of different environments. I mean, I know Jimmy, you\u2019ve adapted to tons of different kinds of music, I mean it\u2019s been quite incredible. Do you have any insights into how you\u2019ve managed to sustain a career, because I think over the next ten or thirty years it\u2019s going to be at least as changeable as it has been over the past thirty, probably a lot more.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: If I\u2019m here over the next thirty years, somebody can just shoot me. [laughter] But no, to me the biggest change that I really saw was the changing over from analog to digital, that whole thing; that whole transition. And when I say \u2018digital\u2019 I don\u2019t just meant digital digital, I mean the ability to, well, computerized tools in the music work place. That was the biggest thing; that was the challenge to me. And I guess for me, the only thing that really kind of drives me is the, is always wanting the ability to try to be ahead of the next, you know. When they were changing over analog, there was a machine called Synclavier. It was a digital new, like one of the first: there was the Fairlight and there was the Synclavier. The Synclavier cost like $250,000, and I happened to be at Atlantic and they happened to own one, and it was sitting in the closet doing nothing. Literally, they could afford it and it was doing nothing. And I saw a couple of demos of it and I went berserk because it could do all these amazing things that nothing else on this planet could do at the time. And I spent about\u2026I worked for them and I asked them not to hire me on anything and I said \u2018You know what, let me just learn this machine.\u2019 And I started doing digital mastering for them at night so they wouldn\u2019t put me on any other gigs because I wanted to learn this machine, and I learned this machine, I taught myself, I felt very proud of myself. And I was, you know, on the forefront, I was in the leading forefront; I did a couple of albums with a group called The System and it was really, you know, it was very rewarding. And you know, they started, these kids started coming around that said they could do the same thing with this cheap little thing called ProTools, or whatever [laughter]. And I paid no heed because, you know, this is $250,000 what can this little machine do? But, you know, as time went on, that little machine got better and better, and this was too much and it was just, it just got kind of outdated, and I found myself with all the little kids.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: You know, and just trying to keep up with all the changing technology has been a very very interesting challenge to me. Like even now, I listen to a lot of the records and there\u2019s a lot of like, you know, all the effects and all that crazy stuff which has nothing to do with music but it\u2019s there and it\u2019s available and, you know, that\u2019s what they want. They want to hear effects, they don\u2019t want to hear just people play music anymore they want to hear all kinds of crazy, \u2018what can this machine do? Let me see what it can do!\u2019 you know? And it\u2019s really, it\u2019s a challenge but that\u2019s what you gotta do if you wanna stay in the game.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah, so you\u2019ve been excited by the changes, really. The technological changes, that\u2019s kept you excited.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Yeah, I\u2019m excited [ironically].<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: [laughter] And Joe, you come from a tech background, so, I guess that\u2026<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney<\/strong>: Yeah, well, one thing is you have to keep aware of the technological changes another thing is you always have to be listening, you know, when we\u2019re in the studio sometimes working 12 or 14 hours a day, you still have to find time to listen to the new records and find the things that you like, and listen to any good music that you\u2019ve always liked and just stay in touch with music, is one thing. Another thing is if you just always do a good job and you give people a hundred percent, somehow it comes back, you know, when a few years later a guy who was a bass player in one group you worked with is in another group and, you know, when word of mouth and reputation. You know, I\u2019ve been lucky because early on in my career in the \u201880\u2019s I worked with people from Japan and people from South America and it just branched out into more people from those places. And you know, I guess luck is also a factor, but I think just always doing good work and staying in touch with what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Could you elaborate on the international work a little bit? Because it\u2019s unusual that you do so much international work.<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney<\/strong>: Yeah, well it wasn\u2019t by design or anything. You know, I started working with a guy from Argentina who came knocking on the door of Electric Lady Studios in like 1984 and wanted someone to mix his record and he turned out to be a very legendary artist down there, his name is Charlie Garc\u00eda. I made a few records with him and then in the \u201890\u2019s the MTv Latino started making unplugged records and I did his and then they liked the way it sounds so they hooked me up with a couple other bands and then all those bands when I met them they wanted me to do their next studio records and it\u2019s just, one thing led to another, and I\u2019ve done about nine projects for Warner Music in Spain. And, you know, some of them were successful so they called me back for other ones.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: That\u2019s great. And Sandy, you\u2019ve, firstly, you\u2019ve been in the business for a very very long time.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Well I\u2019m certainly the oldest person here. I mean, I was an act; I was signed to Fontana Deca EMI as an artist in the \u201860\u2019s in the UK and then, I just realized that I wasn\u2019t going to make it so I decided to go and get a job in the business and I very luckily got a job working for Chess Records. And I ran their publishing company and got their records distributed in the UK, and it was great. And then I left there to start my own label with one of the producers at Decker and we formed Blue Horizon Records which was a very successful blues label. The first act we signed was Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer, and then Seymour Stein and Richard Gott came over from New York and they bought into our label. And then I got the bug: I just wanted to produce records and I left and I did fifty five albums back to back. And only seven of those records was I actually hired to produce. All the others, I found the bands, I signed them to my production company, I made the record, and then went and shopped it. And it was only like the last two records where I never got a deal. But every time I just walked into\u2026with finished albums and got deals. And I know it\u2019s risky to do that but now it\u2019s less expensive to make records. You couldn\u2019t have\u2026I mean in those days, you couldn\u2019t afford to buy a multi-track machine and sound-proof a room and all that. So I would be taking a risk, but nowadays you can make records for very little money. But my passion has always been about making records. And that\u2019s, I just OD\u2019d on doing it so that\u2019s why I switched over and represented producers because I still love that whole passion about making records<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Making records or music?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Music.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Music, ok. Because we keep saying \u2018making records\u2019<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Well, you know.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: No, no, I, no it\u2019s very important\u2026<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: It dates me by saying records because\u2026there are no records anymore.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: No you mean making music, though.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Music, yeah.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Yeah, ok.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: But it\u2019s the recording, it\u2019s the actual recording, the capturing of an event or a series of events or whatever and preserving it forever that\u2026<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: I used to know every player on every session I would, you know, I would memorize their stuff.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah, well you said something to me earlier about not wanting your producers to be working all the time.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: No, I think that is, I think what producers should do, and it\u2019s tough because obviously you\u2019ve got to make a living, but the secret I think is picking and choosing, obviously if you\u2019re starting off you\u2019ve got to try and get your name going, but once you\u2019ve got established a little bit you should try and pick the projects you do. And I know it\u2019s tough because everyone\u2019s got to make a living, but it\u2019s so much better to work with great projects and great acts than just be doing it just to make the rent or the mortgage or whatever you want.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: How do you keep your producers alive and I mean, do some of them have to do day jobs or other gigs in between?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Well I mean I\u2019ve got one guy who\u2019s in his fifties and he\u2019s struggled but now it\u2019s really come through for him because he insisted, and we worked together on this, he insisted that he did not want to work on cheesy projects. And, uh, he just did the Nick Cave record which has done really well, it\u2019s the highest charting record that he\u2019s ever had; he\u2019s in Texas now producing the Yeah yeah yeah\u2019s. He\u2019s, uh, Supergrass: he\u2019s just done their record. So he\u2019s really picking and choosing the projects he does, and the Yeah yeah yeah\u2019s came to him or wanted to work with him because of the record he had made with a Nick Cave side project: Grinderman. So I think it all snowballs.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Well that actually was my next question: do you think it continuing to work, is it about relationships? Is it about reputation? Is it a combination? How does that work, is it about relationships with A&R people, with bands, or how does that, where does most of the work come from, well, from your point of view and from the producer\u2019s point of view?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Through me, oh, it\u2019s changed. I have to go the extra mile now to get my producers work. I mean there was girl recently in Philadelphia who made her own record, and somehow she got it onto XM radio just herself, and it was played on The Loft and I was driving to work and I heard her, her name\u2019s Melody Gardot, and I listened and I thought \u2018she\u2019s amazing.\u2019 And I sort of basically got to the office and I started phoning around and Googling her. I found that she had made her own record and had it on her own little website. So I contacted her and said \u2018Listen I\u2019ve got this guy Larry Klein that would be a fantastic producer for you.\u2019 She says \u2018Well I don\u2019t have a label.\u2019 So I went and met her and she had a manager who was twenty one and he, you know, he didn\u2019t even know the address for Sony, so he would never have got a deal. So I said \u2018Look, if Larry can produce the next record, I\u2019ll get you a record deal.\u2019 And so she said \u2018Great, cool.\u2019 She didn\u2019t have a lawyer and she just had this young manager, so I went out there and I shopped it and I got her a deal with Universal in London and Verve are putting out that record now and Larry\u2019s in the studio this week started doing a record. So that\u2019s what I have to do now in the old days you would be basically getting phone calls with people trying to hire your producers but I have to go out and do that extra thing. And there\u2019s a girl who got signed, purely by making her own record, putting it on her website, and getting some guy on The Loft on XM to play it.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: This is kind of going back to the days of John Hammond where the producers went out there and A&R\u2019d and found acts and got them signed and so on and so forth.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Absolutely. It\u2019s what I said in the very beginning, I think producers should be finding the acts and working out a deal with the band and either putting it out through iTunes, EMusic, Amazon, whatever digital\u2026they want, and maybe working it a little bit themselves, and then maybe going. Because shopping deals now is just impossible with majors. They just want a story, they don\u2019t want a baby act that\u2019s sold nothing.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah, I mean they want it to be on the radio and have sold fifty thousand copies and, it\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: I\u2019ve got a guy now, who, I made a record with this guy, from Australia, and we made the record and it was sort of like, Jet meets Stacks. Had horns, it was a really cool record. And, nothing happened, so basically we just shelved the record and said let\u2019s wait, let\u2019s try and get you on the road. He drove down to San Diego himself and went on American Idol, and he\u2019s in the last ten now, so I\u2019m sitting on a finished record with this guy who\u2019s in the last ten on American Idol. So he did all that himself, he just bit the bullet, auditioned, got on there, got right through, and he\u2019s in the last ten. And he\u2019s the only one on that show right now who\u2019s got a finished record sitting on the shelf.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah, if he wins, you\u2019ll have to give it to BMG, right?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: I don\u2019t know, for me I hope he doesn\u2019t win because then we can put that record out, instead of Jay making a crappy record. [laughter]<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: He said he was going to be the Simon Cowell of the panel. So, Jimmy, how about you, I mean what do you, where do you think most of your work comes from? Relationships? Reputation? Combination?<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: It comes from a combination of any and everything, and when I was listening to Joe, actually, I remembered one thing: one of the key places my work used to come from back, was, you know, when you work the big studios a lot of acts come around. They see you in the seat, they see you making the big record, they want you. That\u2019s what that represents basically, but the era of the big studio has kind of come and gone. And a lot of us are making records in a vacuum, or at home in your own studio by yourself, and nobody\u2019s coming around anymore. So, you know, the hardest thing for me, especially, I\u2019m in Miami now a lot, and I work at a place called the Hit Factory where, like, you know, all the hip-hop people are, when I\u2019m there it\u2019s great, they all come through they see me, we do a slap hands, \u2018I\u2019m gonna work for you, I\u2019ll do your mixes.\u2019 But when I\u2019m not there, trying to keep in touch with the rest of the world to let them know that I even exist, even though I\u2019m making great records and my record do come out, you know, I\u2019m in the hit parade hopefully, but still, on a daily basis, like Sandy was saying, somebody\u2019s in somebody\u2019s office talking about somebody else\u2019s name and it\u2019s not mine. And even though they know and love and respect what I do it\u2019s just like I\u2019m not there, I\u2019m not in their mind at that moment, and this vacuum thing is really part of what is, uh, it\u2019s a good thing and it\u2019s a bad thing.<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: You also see producers more and more getting hired to very high level positions in record companies.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: So obviously the people that run in those circles tend to get some business out of that. Jay-Z and Germaine Dupree and those type of\u2026<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: LA<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: But this is a cyclical thing, though, you know in my lifetime they go through phases where producers run labels and then it goes back to accountants and lawyers and then it flips over to producers again. I mean, unfortunately there aren\u2019t enough labels out there to employ more than about six producers at this point are there? Here\u2019s a question for you that I hope is meaningful to everybody here and that is: if you\u2019re just starting out from scratch today, eighteen years old or twenty two years old, whatever, how do you get started in producing? What do you do? I\u2019ll throw this open to anybody who wants to\u2026<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Well, how do you get started in producing. You know, that question, I\u2019ve been asked many times actually and matter of fact some kid came and asked me this it was some ProTools exhibition, and he came to me and he said \u2018I\u2019ve learned how to work all the stuff, I can do this and that and the other,\u2019 he says, \u2018but, how do I learn how to produce?\u2019 And I thought, \u2018how do you learn how to produce?! No, either you produce or you don\u2019t.\u2019 It\u2019s not something you learn, either you have it or you don\u2019t have it. I don\u2019t think I\u2019m wrong there. From what I\u2019ve understood, from watching producers and being one, you either get it or you don\u2019t get it. So when you say \u2018how do you start out being a producer?\u2019 well, I would say \u2018well, if that\u2019s what you are, you believe that you have the ability and the talent to be that.\u2019 There\u2019s so many, to me, I\u2019m watching people get, I guess, seen that wouldn\u2019t have been seen in the past because of the internet, basically. There really is, I mean as silly as it sounds, there is the youtube thing. People are putting stuff up there and people are seeing stuff that, you would\u2019ve never known these people in the past. There\u2019s no way they would have gotten past anybody\u2019s gate, and now they\u2019re, you\u2019re getting a lot of that, between um, I guess just regular people in the street are being able to, there are channels that you can get out there. You don\u2019t have to depend on the big boy to bring you through and let the world see you.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Do you use the social networking outlets like MySpace and Facebook?<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: I actually have two or three writers that I\u2019ve found on MySpace, I mean I really do go through, you know, a lot of people hit me up and I just, I listen, audition what they do, and some of it\u2019s decent, you know and like and I\u2019ll listen to the writers, I\u2019ll check them out, see what they got, I\u2019ll send them some tracks, they\u2019ll send me some stuff back. You know, we can do that across the thing. I\u2019ve even had a couple people fly into my studio and we\u2019ve written some stuff. Um, it\u2019s there.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah. Joe, what do you think about how you get started.<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney<\/strong>: Well, I think to do this to begin with, you have to be passionate about music and you have to have some kind of skill, and I don\u2019t it\u2019s necessarily a technical thing or something, but just a good, good taste and a good ear. You know, and a good objective view point when you\u2019re working with an artist to help them. You know, to me a producer\u2019s job is really to bring out the best in an artist and hopefully that coincides with making a successful product. But, I think when you\u2019re starting out you just got to find somebody who will let you work with them, and you have to believe in their talent and do the best you can, and if you can make something really good, you know like Jimmy said there are these channels on the internet and things, something that\u2019s good will get noticed, you know, so.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Well there\u2019s a second part to this question then. If, say you\u2019re a pretty successful local or regional producer, how do you make the jump to hyperspace, as it were, or how do you jump up to the level of having hits? Any thoughts on that?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: I think you, I really do think you need to get somebody to work for you. Because, when I was a producer I never had any manager until the very end. And I got a lawyer in New York called Marty Meshat who\u2019s dead now and he said \u2018Listen, I\u2019m never going to find you work, but once you\u2019ve found something I\u2019ll do a good deal for you.\u2019 And he would charge me fifteen percent for doing my contract. But, he would ask for money that I would be embarrassed to ask for, and he got it. He would never read the contracts, he always said, \u2018Listen, forget about the contract. If the record\u2019s a hit, I\u2019ll go in and renegotiate.\u2019 And that was his [laughing] his standard approach! But I think that labels are always looking for somebody new, I mean, they really are. I mean, people come out of the blue. Where did Mark Ronson come from? He came out of the blue!<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Tim Palmer, who I represent, he sent me, he was a tape-up at Utopia Studios, and he used to sneak back in at night after they had locked the studio and take bands in there and cut B sides and things, free. And he sent me, he worked with a band called\u2026dreadful band called Kajagoogoo, you probably don\u2019t even remember them. He did a B side with them and he sent it to me and it was just amazing, the sound was fantastic. And I took him on when he was a tape-up, because he just sounded fantastic. And not long after that, I got a call from Phil Carson who was working at Atlantic records and he said Robert Plant wants somebody new to work with him. He doesn\u2019t want any name. And I thought, \u2018I\u2019ll put Tim up for this.\u2019 So I put Tim up. Tim had never miked a drum kit before he had always worked on drum machines, and he got the gig! Robert said \u2018I like you, come and\u2026\u2019 So he, I think Richie Hayward was the drummer, it was the first time he had miked a drum kit, he phoned me up and said \u2018what do I do?\u2019 Well, you can either put two overheads and [laughs] one on the kick. Or you can just double mike everything! And if you listen to the drum sound on that, it\u2019s great. That\u2019s Shaken and Stirred, that, Robert Plant.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah, no, I remember.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: So I think it\u2019s\u2026you know, if you\u2019re going to try and break into, as you said \u2018go into hyperspace\u2019, you\u2019ve got to probably get someone to help you get there whether it\u2019s a lawyer or a manager or someone like that. But, it you\u2019ve got a great tape, and you get it to the right people, you\u2019ll get, people are going to listen.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: So you recommend mailing\u2026[part lost]<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: \u2026boxes in the corner and they\u2019re so depressing. Because people\u2019s whole hopes are sitting in there and some intern\u2019s going to come in there and listen to it and maybe, and, that\u2019s not the way to do it. You have to get somebody to work with you to get it, to get people to play it.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah, but I mean, market yourself to managers and lawyers?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Yeah, I think so, yeah.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: So reach out to managers who manage\u2026<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Yeah, or lawyers. Some lawyers don\u2019t like to shop, but some do.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Jimmy?<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: I wanted to say one thing, this is called \u2018MySpace savvy.\u2019 Just for those of you that really do it, cut the intros off, please? And I mean that in all sincerity \u2018cause when I go on it to hear stuff I need to, it\u2019s like if you multiply the amount of people in this room and if every one of you had four songs up there, and I have to sit through fifteen seconds of an intro on four songs, that\u2019s a minute times however many people there are here. I would like to hear what you have to offer, but I\u2019d like to get to the point. Um, I\u2019m not trying to be arrogant about it, but sometimes I really do, I get excited by what I see and I\u2019m like, \u2018let me see what this sounds like.\u2019 And then I hear \u2018ku ku kgoon\u2026kgoon.\u2019 And I\u2019m like, \u2018ok\u2026so\u2026it\u2019s gonna sound like what?\u2019 And it\u2019s just one of the things that I just, it\u2019s just a piece of advice I give people because it helps people that might spend the time to listen to you. \u2018Cause if I do two of those, and I realize it\u2019s a lot of intros, then I won\u2019t listen to the third and fourth song.
\nRobert Finan<\/strong>: And, to follow up on that, I mean, it needs to be your best stuff too. I hear so much \u2018Well, it\u2019s a work in progress.\u2019 Or, \u2018It\u2019s not my best.\u2019 Well it has to be your best stuff. I mean, that is out to the world and there have been, you know some people that have got some success, and, you know, you don\u2019t want him [Jimmy] hearing just your mediocre stuff, it needs to be the best.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah, I mean you don\u2019t get a second chance to make a first impression. I want to throw it open to questions now. I\u2019m not sure if we have any questions, but if we do, does anybody have any questions? Would you possibly, Tom, do you want to stand on the mike, \u2018cause we\u2019re trying to record everything and capture everything, questions as well.<\/p>\n

Tom<\/strong>: Hi, my name\u2019s Tom, I\u2019m an artist manager. I\u2019ve had good success with major labels, but with the whole trend towards self releasing, from my clients I see both sides of that. And, I\u2019m curious to hear what any of you have to say about that; Sandy in particular in the case of Melody Gardot, who I\u2019ve been hearing a lot about lately, what made it a better decision for her to go with a major label than to stick with her independent record, which was already being played on XM, caught your attention, why was it not better for her to self release?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Well, it\u2019s down to funding. I mean, Universal in London have flown her to London two or three times, she\u2019s already been on TV there, they\u2019ve got whole press behind her, she couldn\u2019t afford to do that. She just had her own website with a record up there, and she sent it to somebody at The Loft and got it played, and I happened to be just listening at that time.<\/p>\n

Tom<\/strong>: Doesn\u2019t that speak to the whole issue of \u2018well, gee, you make more money per disc when you put it out yourself, so why don\u2019t you put it out yourself?\u2019 I think so many artists are being told that and they don\u2019t understand, but then they\u2019ll have to fund the marketing of their own recording themselves, and they don\u2019t realize the whole business behind it. All they\u2019re thinking is \u2018gee, I\u2019m gonna make more per disc\u2019 and they\u2019re not thinking about the business that goes into releasing a record.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Right.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Any other questions?<\/p>\n

Ward Kirkendal<\/strong>: Hi, my name is Ward Kirkendal and I\u2019m a student at Omega Studio Schools of Applied Recording Arts and Sciences, and a good question for me is, I\u2019m trying to figure out how to get into the business after I\u2019m done with school and everything. How many of you all take on interns and entry-level positions? How common is that in the business today?<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney<\/strong>: Well, I own a recording studio so occasionally we get somebody to come in and in the beginning it\u2019s things like answering phones or assisting certain sessions or the engineer\u2019s pretty confident to do it himself and he just sort of, you know, watch and learn, and it can be boring a lot of times but you\u2019re, you know, there are places you can do it. It generally doesn\u2019t pay well until you work your way up to being an assistant engineer or something like that, you know.<\/p>\n

Ward<\/strong>: Maybe just one more, if any of you guys can remember, how did you make your first dollar? Since we\u2019re talking about money.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: My first dollar in the records or my first dollar?<\/p>\n

Ward<\/strong>: Yeah, as far as producers or engineers.<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney<\/strong>: Well I was fortunate I worked in the studio in New York, Electric Lady Studios and I was their technician and I fixed the equipment, I worked the night shift and things. And I got friendly with a lot of the bands that worked there and one of them was The Clash and they came through town on a tour and they had a song that they didn\u2019t finish, and they said \u2018hey if we bring the tapes over here after our gig, can we finish this with you?\u2019 And I said sure, you know, but I had never touched a fader or done anything like that, you know, I had the knowledge of that all because I was a fan of music and I had to keep the studio working and everything. But so I just fell into it and I was very lucky, but, you know, some guys are assistant engineers for a long time and they never get a break, and then some guys are there for two weeks and somebody doesn\u2019t show up sick and they get to touch the faders and then they have a career, you know, so it\u2019s, there\u2019s a lottery element to it, you know.<\/p>\n

Ward<\/strong>: Thank you very much.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Any other questions?<\/p>\n

Stan Green<\/strong>: Hi, my name is Stan Green. I\u2019m a songwriter\/engineer. My question is directed towards Jimmy Douglas: you being a producer, engineer, and songwriter, how many times while you were tracking a song or mixing a song have you been involved in the songwriting\/producing aspect and not received any credit for it? And how often does that happen and is that expected while you\u2019re an engineer?<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Um, it happens a lot. It happens a lot, I mean, it happened a lot back in the day because I didn\u2019t realize my contribution as a producer\u2026 many times, like a lot of the funk groups I used to do, I\u2019d help them kind of write, but there\u2019d be so many people writing that I would think \u2018well you\u2019re the producer, this is your contribution to make the song better by contributing a word or two here.\u2019 And you know, there are so many people I would be like \u2018yeah, don\u2019t\u2026\u2019 you know I felt kinda\u2026 And then sometimes I\u2019d hear people talk about the song and they\u2019d mention the<\/em> line that I put in, they go \u2018I love this line,\u2019 and I\u2019m like \u2018shit that was my line.\u2019 But, you know, that\u2019s the way that it goes sometimes. More recently, I mean on one of the things that I do, a lot of the people I work with now, the reason they love me is because I am producer and I\u2019m a really good vocal coach, and I do all that stuff from back in the day, and I am also a contributor. And there\u2019s one artist I\u2019m not gonna mention because the camera\u2019s rolling, but there was one song that we kinda wrote together but he\u2019s a little more clever than that; the way he wrote it was, he kinda asked me questions about the way to say things, and then he\u2019d re-word it. So we would talk about the song, we were actually writing the song, and he would talk about the thing and say \u2018well how would you feel if this\u2026\u2019 and I\u2019d say \u2018well, you know, he\u2019s gonna feel this way, and the character\u2019s gonna\u2026\u2019 and we\u2019d talk about, like, writing the song and he\u2019d go \u2018you mean, kinda like, dadada\u2026\u2019 and I\u2019d be like \u2018ok but that\u2019s not you\u2019re words,\u2019 but we kinda just, you know. So yeah, it happens, you know. But the record was very successful so at the end of the day, sometimes you give, sometimes you take, sometimes, you know. If you\u2019ve got talent, you\u2019ll get what you\u2019re supposed to get.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: That\u2019s a good question because it comes up all the time, because it must be like talking about a prenup, you know? [laughter] How do you get around to it? It\u2019s so difficult because if you talk about song splits with a band before you start working with them,<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Oh god.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: it\u2019s just, it\u2019s a vibe killer right away.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: Kills it. Totally.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: But, after the fact, it\u2019s always very difficult to go back. So that\u2019s a good question because that comes up still now, every month there\u2019s a producer who\u2019s saying \u2018listen I wrote some of that song.\u2019 It\u2019s so difficult. It\u2019s a really difficult thing because there\u2019s no real hard set way to deal with that. Maybe just go out for a drink before hand, wait for the right moment.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: It\u2019s particularly difficult because I think sometimes the artist thinks the producer is trying to get a piece of the publishing.<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney<\/strong>: It\u2019s a grey area, though, because if you\u2019re working on a record, you\u2019re the producer and ultimately you\u2019re in charge, and if the artist, you know, like has a song and one of the verses or something has some corny lyric or something and you say \u2018well, why don\u2019t you change it?\u2019 \u2018Well I can\u2019t think of anything,\u2019 and then you think of something and you give it to him or something then\u2026 but, no, but a lot of times you have to let it go, but if it\u2019s a thing like \u2018oh, this song needs a bridge,\u2019 and then they can\u2019t come up with it and you write it and they like it, then obviously you\u2019re a co-writer. So it\u2019s kind of a grey area, you know, but you also have to step in and help because you have to make a good record.<\/p>\n

Stan Green<\/strong>: Thank you.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Did you have a question?<\/p>\n

Unnamed<\/strong>: I\u2019m probably working on my third independent project in the past fifteen years. Question I have to the Academy is about how do we, or what is the Academy doing to stop the illegal downloads?<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: I can\u2019t speak on behalf of the Academy, actually, I don\u2019t know if anybody else here does, but I, uh, I think, you know, it\u2019s really an educational process more than anything because the Academy\u2019s not an organization that can really stop illegal downloads but I think that, certainly for my part, you know, I try to put out as much information to people to say \u2018you know what, you\u2019re hurting the very thing that you love. If you download music for free, you\u2019re hurting the business in general, you\u2019re hurting artists who make their living, if artists can\u2019t make their living from music, then you\u2019re not gonna wind up with as much good music out there.\u2019 And maybe that\u2019s not true, you know, I mean there\u2019s also the argument that people that download a lot of stuff also buy a lot of stuff, so, I don\u2019t know. Do you guys have an opinion about that? About illegal downloads?<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: I think it\u2019s offering the consumer better alternatives. I think iTunes has done a tremendous job of that by giving them very simple way to download things. You know, the CD was actually a great period of time, the invention of the CD, because all the labels would reissue their catalog, there was a tremendous spike, and I think you can have that for the digital age as well if they do it right. Because everyone, even though you have the record down somewhere in your basement or the CD down in your basement, you know, we\u2019re a society of instantaneous gratification and we will go and we will hit that button on iTunes and download the thing for ten dollars. And, uh, I\u2019m seeing that more and more. So I think it\u2019s important to give the consumer a very efficient way of getting the music.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Yeah, I will tell you this, I mean I see so many people out there with digital players and to me this indicates that there\u2019s a massive proliferation in the use of music, and yet for whatever reason the industry\u2019s declining each year in terms of revenue. So I think that it\u2019s really everybody\u2019s responsibility to kind of front up and say, you know \u2018I enjoy this, I should pay for it.\u2019 That\u2019s how I feel about it, but on the other hand, I mean, if you could get gas free at the next gas station people would do that too. So it\u2019s very hard as long as it\u2019s free I think people are gonna take it. Any other questions?<\/p>\n

Elyse Perry<\/strong>: Good evening, my name is Elyse Perry I\u2019m a producer. You all spoke of a number of projects that are getting completed this year, how they\u2019ve dipped, and I think that the industry looks at some of us producers that aren\u2019t those twenty producers that are doing the six figure projects as on a different level. So we get a smaller amount of money. So my question to you all is: how do we potentially broker a deal with people who just have no money? Everybody wants to pay the studio, no one wants to pay the producer. They want us to go independent in with them and then they go out and they burn their CD\u2019s and we have no way of auditing, you know, their independent releases. We do five songs, two songs, ten songs, they go out, they do a concert, they sell a hundred CD\u2019s, everybody loves it, but we don\u2019t ever get a cut. So we get our money up front as much as we can, and still don\u2019t really get what we deserve. I mean, we want to broker a deal fairly, but it\u2019s never fair enough. So my question to you is, and I was hoping I was gonna get something like this was, another production business model for low-balling. I mean, there\u2019s so many things that people are doing out here, I call it \u2018street brokering,\u2019 where they rent<\/em> beats. They rent<\/em> beats it\u2019s: they get out here and they do a beat for somebody and \u2018you got this beat for six months and then it goes back out here for, if, Jay-Z wants his beat, you can\u2019t have the beat anymore. If I do this beat for you for six months and you get picked up, then we renegotiate.\u2019 You know, so there are all kinds of little street that we\u2019re doing and some of them hold up and some of them don\u2019t. I was just thinking maybe you all had an idea for some form of a production business model for the ground level until you become on Timberland\u2019s level, or something.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: That\u2019s called, uh, that sounded like that was called licensing to me, what you just described. Whether it\u2019s in the street or whether it\u2019s in the big offices, it\u2019s the same process basically. The real fact, and I look at this many times from my positions, the \u201cbig money\u201d, the Timberland\u2019s and all those people, there is a handful of people making most of the records that you hear on the radio. Yes, there\u2019s a handful, that they\u2019re all feeding the same Ferrell, Timberland, and dadadada, and they\u2019re sending all the money. But at the same time there\u2019s also a crop of people like yourself that are coming up, that can\u2019t really be regulated yet because you\u2019re not really on the radar. But if you want to be on the radar and you want to have everything set straight up, they\u2019re not gonna do it with you, they\u2019re gonna do it with them. The thing is, your investment and your risk, that is what you\u2019re investing in: yourself. And you\u2019re investing in your future. And the fact that work that you\u2019re putting into it right now, which you may not be being paid for, you will be being paid for at some point. One of the things that I do, remember when I was talking about that Australian deal, one of the things that I kept saying to this person, I said \u2018you know, you\u2019re getting crazy over this little little stuff. Either we make money, and we both make money, or neither of us really make any money and this really isn\u2019t worth this shit anyway.\u2019 And that\u2019s what I kept saying over and over again and they weren\u2019t understanding; I was saying \u2018look, if we end up selling this many records, we\u2019re both gonna make money, so stop it.\u2019 And, you know, it\u2019s kind of the same thing, you know: so, they\u2019re selling a hundred CD\u2019s here and there, so what are you gonna make of that? Probably, what, I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re gonna make. Whatever that is, you may be entitled, but look at the bigger picture, you know, look at some of the, think about somebody getting some sort of documentation that you\u2019re supposed to follow this trail that, suddenly should blow up and really make some serious money, now we really want to talk about it. Now we want to talk.<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: One thing that I\u2019ve also seen more recently is, before, uh, ten years ago or so, record companies wanted to, they would listen to a demo and then they would go in and get one of these guys to re-do that track. For some liability reasons, they wanted to be able to control the sound, they wanted to be able to do it. I\u2019m seeing more and more that labels will be interested in putting out the track that they receive. They\u2019ll be putting out those demos. I\u2019m doing a deal right now where it\u2019s kind of this, we were talking about this earlier, a flow-rider situation which was just this one track that was serviced through iTunes, and it just blew up. Same type of situation where a major is going to do a singles deal, put it out, and it\u2019s the same track the got, same producer such as yourself who hopefully will, if this track blows up, will be able to produce the album or at least, will be on that single, will have that credit to their name. And then, you know, and that\u2019s the baby steps. So, you know, that\u2019s a good thing in kinda where we\u2019re going now, recently.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Thank you. Next question.<\/p>\n

Bo Samps<\/strong>: My name is Bo Samps and you guys are doing a great job. I would like to know from you guys; can you guys elaborate on how long it takes an artist to come out? Because a lot of people don\u2019t really realize just \u2018cause you sign a record deal doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re coming out the next day, and I just wanted you guys to kind of elaborate on that, and then, I also would like to make a comment that, you know, from the way radio does things now, things have changed and that has really affected you, producers, the artists and everything. The way you expose music is the only way, you know, that you guys are gonna be heard. So you\u2019ve got stuff that you\u2019ve produced that people haven\u2019t even heard, and I think that\u2019s important for people to know.<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney<\/strong>: Well, we\u2019ve all produced records that nobody\u2019s heard, unfortunately [laughter]. But, you know, on a grass roots level, you gotta try and get it out there any way you can, you know, with the Myspace, the internet, through the band\u2019s website, whatever, the artist\u2019s website. You know, when you get signed to a major label your record might not come out for as long as a year.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Sometimes it never comes out.<\/p>\n

Joe Blaney<\/strong>: Sometimes it never comes out, sometimes they release one single and if they pay their radio promo person and it doesn\u2019t get air play, you know, three months after the record\u2019s out, the artist can\u2019t get through to anyone from the record label on the phone, you know. So it can be over that quick, you know. But, uh, I think the best thing these days is to, one is to make something that\u2019s really, you know, good quality with the artist and the production, and two is to get as much momentum going with it as you can, before you go to a major label. You know, as much exposure, as many people coming to the artist\u2019s shows or whatever.<\/p>\n

Jerry Olson<\/strong>: Hi, thanks for coming out. My name is Jerry Olson I run a discount CD replication company called Music Boot Camp.com. I\u2019m curious what you guys think of the big tidal wave that Trent Reznor made with his last album, the, I think it\u2019s called \u2018Ghosts.\u2019 And, he made about a million dollars in his first week. I know he\u2019s had, you know, obviously enormous prior exposure, but there\u2019s a lot of controversy about, you know, people daring the majors to try this kind of a business model and there\u2019s a lot of fear on the side of the majors, of course, to sort of stop monitoring the income of the CD and go with this sort of global approach, you know, saturating the market and then pay, you know, pay what you feel comfortable with. But there\u2019s a big demand for that kind of thing. And lastly, I think a lot of people feel that\u2019s a fair deal because they get to listen to the product and evaluate how much it\u2019s worth and then actually purchase it. I know it\u2019s a really controversial business model, but I wondered what, with your experience with the major labels, how do you feel about that particular success? Do you think that there is any future in that sort of approach?<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Well one of my clients actually made that record, Atticus Ross. And that record, it\u2019s available through Trent\u2019s website, but it\u2019s going to be available physically in the UK and in America, so he\u2019s put it out in a number of different formats. But I think he was just fed up with being with Interscope, and he just wanted to do it himself, and he just lucked out because, you know, the record has done really well.<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: I don\u2019t think that there will ever be a time where we\u2019re at a \u2018pay what you want for a record\u2019 and that\u2019ll be a successful business model.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: But I think it\u2019s five bucks a record. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s pay\u2026<\/p>\n

Jerry Olson<\/strong>: It varied. There was a plateau of like 128 bit where you get your basic quality, iTunes basic quality, for free if you want. And then ten dollars if you want to pre-order the CD, and then they had twenty five hundred units that were like hundreds of dollars. And they sold out of those in the first week.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: Well I don\u2019t think he anticipated the interest in this because he, I think the website crashed the first night on that Sunday night that it came out.<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: I think there\u2019s a lot of discussion in technology companies that are working on dynamic pricing models, which I think are possibly more relevant, where it\u2019s just a demand, a dynamic demand system where in real time, you know, as twenty five people are typing in that they\u2019re looking at this particular record, the prices are gonna go up and down. I guess similar to airline tickets and that type of thing. I see that as being a possibility.<\/p>\n

Sandy Roberton<\/strong>: I think the biggest problem we had on that record was working out the mechanical because I got a share of the mechanicals from my client, and I think there\u2019s thirty one tracks on that album. So it was very difficult working out the mechanicals.<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: The thing I like about that model, I mean there\u2019s a couple things I like about it, but the one thing I really do like is it forces the level of the product to be better. Because if you can hear it before you\u2019re gonna buy it, that means that you can\u2019t just put crap on a record and expect people to buy it. So it\u2019s forcing us as creators to create a better product. That\u2019s what I like about it.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: I\u2019m gonna have to take the last question now and then we\u2019re gonna wrap up.<\/p>\n

Jamal<\/strong>: How you doing, my name is Jamal [?], I\u2019m an artist and producer. I heard you talking about clearing samples, and usually when I\u2019m making a song about samples I produce for myself, so my philosophy is pretty much: I\u2019m charging that to the game because they\u2019re probably gonna take everything from sampling but that\u2019s because I don\u2019t understand the process of clearing the samples so I was wondering if you could elaborate more on that, the steps that need to be taken to clear a sample for myself.<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: I mean, typically what will happen is they will put in either just the publishing or its interpolation and they don\u2019t use the actual master, or they\u2019ll actually use the master in the track itself. Now, obviously if, there are clearance houses that this is all they do and they will go and they will clear the publishing and there will be an advance that is required, there will be a, presumably, a royalty that is required, and that number\u2019s gonna change depending on what type of deal. If it\u2019s a big deal and you are doing this for a major label, obviously the deal\u2019s gonna be different, but yeah, in the even that you do utilize other people\u2019s music, you should license that from them, and it\u2019s just, you know, a standard sample license that you\u2019d have to go to the publisher for.<\/p>\n

Jamal<\/strong>: Would that be something that you should think about doing before you take the sample?<\/p>\n

Jimmy Douglas<\/strong>: If I can say, \u2018cause I\u2019ve had it both ways I\u2019ve had my stuff sampled, if you\u2019re really clever enough to do it now, before the record is anything, most of the time they\u2019ll probably give you, they\u2019ll let you probably have it. If you\u2019ve got something going on, the price just went up. I mean, it\u2019s all relative to what it is and so forth. So, like you know, I figure a guy like yourself, I don\u2019t know the level of your artist but if you get a sample clear what I\u2019m doing, I\u2019d ask \u2018well let me hear what you\u2019ve got,\u2019 and if you could send me the original too, save me the time of having to go dig it up, but, you know, you give me those two parts and I\u2019ll sit and I\u2019ll listen and I\u2019ll decide how relevant is this to your song, you know. Could your song actually have been done without this? You know, and that kind of thing. And then once again it\u2019s really like \u2018who is this? Oh, you were doing Jay-Z? It\u2019s gonna cost you, dude.\u2019 You know?<\/p>\n

Robert Finan<\/strong>: And he\u2019s right, you know, if you do it now before you really have anything on the radar, it\u2019s gonna be less, however if you\u2019re dealing with a major, they\u2019re probably gonna charge some sort of minimum because there\u2019s just administrative costs in doing a deal, but, you know, sometimes you can get contingency type licenses that it\u2019ll be free for demos and if it gets commercially released it kicks in with what kind of royalty or what kind of payment that you have to do.<\/p>\n

Richard Burgess<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019d like to thank everybody for coming and I think we\u2019re out of time. Particularly, I\u2019d like to thank Sandy Roberton, Joe Blaney, Jimmy Douglass, and Robert Finan for traveling all the way to DC and sharing a lifetime of knowledge thank you so much [applause]. I\u2019d also like to thank the producer\/engineer wing of the Recording Academy and Smithsonian Folkways recordings for sponsoring the event and thank you again to everyone for coming and for all the good questions and I hope this has been a helpful discussion.<\/p>\n

Shannon Emamali<\/strong>: Yeah, I just want to give another thanks for everyone for coming out and for Richard for moderating and I really encourage all of you guys to continue to visit our website: www.grammy.com\/washingtondc<\/a>, it has all of the listings of events like this. Our next big major event is our Grammy salute to gospel music, it\u2019s gonna be, it\u2019s back here again this year for all of you guys who attended last year, you know what a treat it is to have this event back here in Washington DC. It\u2019s gonna be on June 18th<\/sup>, at the Lincoln Theatre, and stay tuned to our website \u2018cause we\u2019ll be announcing our honorees and tribute performers relatively soon. So thank you guys again for coming out.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

March 24, 2008 Baird Auditorium \u2013 Museum of Natural History Shannon Emamali:\u00a0 Good evening, I am Shannon Emamali and I am the executive director of the Recording Academy\u2019s Washington, DC Chapter.\u00a0 Welcome to our first actual Producer and Engineers event we\u2019ve had here for the Chapter.\u00a0\u00a0 We\u2019ve had it in other cities but we actually […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[60],"tags":[34,5],"class_list":["post-640","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-articles-editorials-provocations","tag-industry-perspective","tag-interviews","author-jimmy-douglas","author-joe-blaney","author-richard-burgess","author-robert-finan","author-sandy-roberton"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/640","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=640"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/640\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1543,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/640\/revisions\/1543"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=640"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=640"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.arpjournal.com\/asarpwp\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=640"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}